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JTWood

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Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2041#msg2041
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I wouldn't expect to see god farming decks in PVP, because they have way more to gain by playing the gods.   :D

JTWood

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Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2042#msg2042
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I think quantum towers are just fine. They are in no way overpowered. It is the versatility of the rainbow deck itself that is overwhelming - the combination of pillars, novas, dials, hourglasses and other cards from each element. And a rainbow deck is best suited for farming gods - it has the needed versatility.
That combination doesn't happen if the Towers produce one less quantum per turn.

Jumbalumba

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Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2043#msg2043
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

If you run enough denial in any deck, you can literally outdamage them to death before the late game (even if they do have a Miracle).
I'd like to see that work on a consistent basis. What cards would that deck have? Obviously, quantum/pillars and towers are not for consideration as we are talking about a deck without those cards against a deck with those cards. More importantly, have you tried it yourself? Also importantly, as it is an integral part of the game, can it defeat False Gods? So far, as I see it, there is 1 non-rainbow deck that can consistently defeat False Gods and 1 or 2 non-rainbow decks that can consistently defeat rainbow decks in PvP. The lack of possibility demonstrates the overpoweredness of rainbow, regardless of whether it be due to quantum pillars/towers, and the current uselessness of other pillars/towers.

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2044#msg2044
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

And so it follows that regular towers should be improved:

Quantum/regular as they are -> PvP bad, gods farmable   :(

Quantum towers nerfed/regular as they are -> PvP balanced, gods too hard  :(

Quantum towers as they are/regular boosted -> PvP possibly balanced, gods farmable  :D

The only problem is - how should regulars be boosted?


Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2045#msg2045
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

Sadly, I have to agree with Brian. However, the other elements that may not be so great for the gods are, in fact, VERY effective in PvP, and can actually take down most Rainbow decks quickly and effectively (Rainbow decks hate Momentum and Explosions XD).

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2046#msg2046
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

You're right, there are only a couple counters to rainbow decks right now. Like I said, Darkness and Fire are your best bets, or Light/Life if you can get a good hand. But really, the game is quite new, and there aren't that many cards per element, so mono-color decks are mostly restricted to massing quantum and spamming dragons, which works for some elements, but sadly, variety is lacking. Once the game expands a bit more (which it most likely will), then we'll see more strategies, more strength in mono- and duo-color decks due to a larger variety of cards per element, and perhaps we'll even see better decks for defeating the gods, even some that AREN'T rainbow.

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2047#msg2047
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

Perhaps, dual pillars could be added.
LOL

Do you realize how many NEW cards that would add to the game?
Isn't that the point? I'm not saying to add those right away, obviously, but once there are many more cards for each element, adding dual towers would be a practical course to take, since strategies are bound to change. Perhaps have a limit of six of a single type per deck, to prevent players from running ONLY dual pillars/towers and completely unbalancing duo-decks.

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2048#msg2048
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I wouldn't expect to see god farming decks in PVP, because they have way more to gain by playing the gods.   :D
I play PvP when I get bored of the Gods, and just to see what other deck ideas people are using. XD

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2049#msg2049
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

And so it follows that regular towers should be improved:

Quantum/regular as they are -> PvP bad, gods farmable   :(

Quantum towers nerfed/regular as they are -> PvP balanced, gods too hard  :(

Quantum towers as they are/regular boosted -> PvP possibly balanced, gods farmable  :D

The only problem is - how should regulars be boosted?

Perhaps, dual pillars could be added. A pillar that produces two different predeterminded quantum for two different elements. Similar to a dual land from MTG, they could come into play with a time delay (Similar to a creature that attacked a player with the Procrastinator). Then, after the first turn they come into play, they can start producing two quantum. This would make Duo decks MUCH more common and usable. Perhaps not for farming the False Gods, but when build correctly, they'd be able to destroy most upgraded rainbow decks in PvP, even with an unupgraded deck. The upgraded versions of these Pillars could just come into play without the time delay. Also, this would make tri-element decks more common. Some elemens (such as earth, gravity, and time) work well together, and perhaps, using gravity as the main element, run the time/gravity pillars, and the gravity/earth pillars. Also, running a couple time/earth pillars in a mono-earth deck would allow you to use Graboids without changing the mark or substituting pillars. This would work with time/gravity for Scarabs, life/water for Forest Spirits, or fire/earth for Lava Golems.

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2050#msg2050
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

You (most of you) have seemed to have lost track of the objective.  It's not to have mono win VS gods, It's to have mono win VS rainbow in PvP sometimes as apposed to never. (excluding random bad luck draws).
I think we're mostly just discussing why there are so many rainbow decks in the first place. I've taken mine into PvP and beaten most people, including the ever so rare god farming rainbow decks that I only seem to find in PvP once in a blue moon, and I usually win. Not sure if it's just my luck, but I don't see too many farming decks in PvP (not to say that I don't see the occasional rainbow). However, most of the time a simple mono-speed deck (dark or fire) can take down a good rainbow deck. What I'd like to see, though, are more denial cards for the other elements. So far, Steal and Deflag seem to be the only ways to stop a Rainbow deck in it's tracks, and Chrys poison with enough stalls (sundails are mostly used), would tear the deck appart.

I don't think it's too much the pillars that give rainbow decks the advantage, it's simply that they have enough stall for late-game wins. If you run enough denial in any deck, you can literally outdamage them to death before the late game (even if they do have a Miracle).

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2051#msg2051
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

Once the game expands a bit more (which it most likely will), then we'll see more strategies, more strength in mono- and duo-color decks due to a larger variety of cards per element....
This is simply not true.  When more cards are added, rainbow decks with scale more than the mono or duo element decks.  Consider any scenario you like, all creatures, mass shields, it doesn't matter.

Rainbow gets 3X the quantum per turn that mono and duo do.  Evening out the elements in your rainbow deck, effectively makes it as powerfull as a mono that got 3 quantum per tower.  with 4 lands rainbow gets 48 quantum in 4 turns, mono gets 16 quantum in 4 turns.  Adding variety to mono does not change this fundamental problem and also adds more precise variety to rainbow.  Literally compounding the problem.

Thinking it over again, I think the easiest way to balance everything would be to nerf false gods a ton, and nerf quantum towers.  The only other alternative is to increase the cost of every card in the game so that mono actually lets you play things faster than rainbow which is not the case now.
(really only quoted so I could reread as I typed)

The problem with Quantum Towers is that the Quanta they give is always randomized. I can't tell you how many games I've lost because the one Quanta I needed was the ONLY one that the Towers never gave me. I've lost games midway (about 20 cards left in my 55 card deck) because I was sitting at 4 Aether the entire game. It's not fun. The point is, even WITH Novas, it is ultimately the luck of the draw and getting lucky enough to get the Quanta you need from the Towers that wins the game.

Just because Rainbow gets three quanta per Pillar per turn DOES NOT mean that it's the same as a normal Pillar that gives only one quanta per Pillar per turn. Normal Pillars ALWAYS give ONE Quanta to the element that you need. Quanta Pillars MIGHT give zero to three quanta to an element you need. There are twelve elements, which means that there is a 3/12, or 1/4 chance that you will get an element that you need. Also, with such random quanta production, you may not get the amount you need until it's too late. Sure, this can be off-set by Novas and Supernovas (which you'll still need your Entropy Quanta for, unless you're running a Mark of Entropy), but then you'll rely on getting a (Super)Nova early game. Otherwise, they'll just be a useless draw late game, which would simply be a waste of a draw for the turn, when instead you could've drawn something that could actually be useful.

Also, even if adding more cards to each element would give Rainbow more to work with, what I was getting at is that there will be far less counters to other types of decks in a Rainbow deck. The standard ones I see playing now are usually 47-60 cards (aside from Scaredgirl's Scarab Rainbow Deck), which means that there isn't much room for improvement. Sure, cards could be taken out, but once you start adding some more, you'll need to off-set them with more Towers, which would make the number of cards you could add even less. Also, with the new cards, Rainbow decks just can't add them willy-nilly without screwing up their Quanta per card balance that is so vital to the deck running smoothly. If, for example, Dual Pillars were released (similar to Dual Lands from MTG), then Duo- and Tri-Element decks will become MUCH more popular. Even if those were the only new cards added, both duo- and tri-element decks would not have to worry so much about relying on a specific type of Pillar, since all the pillars in the deck could produce at least one element that they would need, greatly speeding up the effectiveness of the deck. Rainbow decks, on the other hand, would only suffer from these types of Pillars being implimented.

Are Quantum Towers Too Powerful? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=83.msg2052#msg2052
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I 'could' see your case if quantum towers produced 3 quantum of any ONE random element (which might be a good Idea).

Even if you have had the experience of 20+ of each element and only 4 of one element being produced in a game, this is not only a rare incident, it's extremely rare.  About as rare as a mono deck drawing too many towers or not enough towers or none of a vital card.

I, reluctantly, play rainbow exclusively for now.  I don't want it nerfed vs gods.  I just want a fair battle Vs other decks in pvp.  If you think it's fair in pvp as it is, I would suggest you have a bias.
Extremely rare? This actually happens to me more than winning. Either my luck is very bad, or in over 400 games against the gods, something is amiss.

A bias? Towards what? Currently, I play a rainbow deck. I like it, it works, it has the ability to be changed and upgraded to provide more variety, but it's built for the Gods, so it's not going to be changed. I've no problem with rainbow decks. All I'm trying to point out is that compared to mono-element decks, rainbow require much more luck, and may not work as effectively as mono-element or dual-element decks (though, as of now, dual element decks have problems with getting quantum). Honestly, I'd prefer to use a dual-element deck, but that's beside the point. It's a personal preference, not a bias.

 

blarg: