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Offline OldTrees

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457760#msg457760
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 01:52:13 am »
I just wonder, If you don't want destruction spells but more "creative" solutions like shards. How are you going to stop a firefly queen from spawning flies if you can't kill it? Or how do you get true a gravitypulled voodoo doll, if you can't rewind it? I'dd say a good removal spell can be flexible enough because it solves a lot of problems instead of one specific problem otherwise solved by a (probably situational) card. I'm not saying that we need to create an "uber-spell" wich can get rid of just anything. No, i'm just saying that it's realy sad that the big hitters (like upped dragons) are too difficult to deal with.
How to stop Firefly Queen's ability from being a threat without killing Firefly Queen?
1) Make the result of the ability not a significant threat (Diamond Shield, Fire Shield)
2) Change the effect of the ability (Acceleration, Liquid Shadow, Mutation)
3) Prevent activation of the ability (Arctic Squid, Warden, Devourer, Earthquake, Discord)
4) Remove the ability (Lobotomize)
That is with cards that exist already. If I went into theoretical cards I would never run out of options.

How to get through a Gravity Pulled Voodoo Doll without using Removal cards (like Reverse Time) to remove it?
1) Alternate Win condition (Deckout, Direct damage)
2) Heal the damage Voodoo inflicts (Long list of healing)
3) Reduce the hp without triggering the ability (Mutation)
4) Change the Gravity Pull to a different creature (Gravity Pull, Might need Nightmare)
Again that is without theoretical cards like one that would remove Status conditions.

Dragons are not too difficult to deal with.
Dimensional Shield, Fog Shield, Dusk Shield, Bone Wall, Warden, Mutation, Fire Bolt, Gravity Shield, Thorn Carapace, Hope, Eternity, Squid
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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457802#msg457802
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 04:09:53 am »
Well, going through the interview, here are my thoughts:

Quote
Jeff: I played Elements for about a year. I started in 2010 and quit sometime in middle 2011
  This timeframe is extremely unlikely.  The interview does not mention shards, pendulums, or the arena.  It also does not mention nymphs, whose ultra-rarity should have come up as an interview topic, one way or another.  I can only conclude that either Jeff is remembering incorrectly or he overlooked some of the most important features of the metagame, namely shards and pendulums.

Quote
The game was really easy to learn
  He is correct here.  You can learn how to play the game in under half an hour.  The simplicity of Elements is both a strong and a weak point.  It allows new players to enter quickly with a shallow learning curve, but it also means there is a certain lack of complexity; for example, no actions can be taken in the opponent's turn.  (another point that was not raised at all in the interview, either as comment or criticism)

Quote
Weapon cards. I mean, they were ridiculously overpowered, but they were also really fun to use.
  This raises several flags in my mind.  Firstly, the weapons actually are not overpowered, compared to many other cards that would have existed at the time, such as nova.  Also the fact that he mentions weapons are overpowered, but makes no mention of shards, some of which really are overpowered (such as the old shard of gratitude at the time he claims to have played), indicates that the timeframe above is wrong.  Thirdly, the comment about enjoying the use of what Jeff perceives to be overpowered cards suggests in my mind a bit of a n00bish attitude towards gaming in general, despite his year of playing Elements.  (which is, unfortunately, an ad hominem argument, but quite likely still true)

Quote
weapon cards often had repeatable effects that could be used each turn, and there weren’t really many answers for them. Like, some colors couldn’t even deal with weapon cards, and that alone made them unviable
  Some elements do indeed have trouble dealing with weapons, and permanents in general.  This alone doesn't make invididual elements unviable, but it does contribute to the weakness of elements like Life.

Quote
For example, answers, which are like counterspells in Magic, are way too cheap for what they do. Not only that, but they’re also way too specific in what they counter so there doesn’t seem to be a lot of cleverness in the ways they can be used. Some were even specific to certain colors, so those colors could deal with threats better than others.
This is largely untrue.  Jeff, who mentions playing Magic here, doesn't seem to realize that cards like Rewind, Thunderbolt, Explosion, or Steal have direct analogues in M:TG, and while I haven't done the math, I'd wager that if you quantitatively worked it out, they'd have comparable casting costs.  He apparently hasn't ever seen staple M:TG cards like Swords to Plowshares or Mana Drain or Force of Will or Lightning Bolt or any number of cheap answers that are more overpowered than any removal in Elements, none of which he seems to be thinking about.  As for cleverness in using the removal, it's not really that much different than a game like Magic, and apparently he's never used Butterfly Effect to lobotomize a creature, or killed something with liquid shadow or overdrive, or taken down flying titans with a fallen elf.  He also doesn't seem to realize that there are indirect counters to things; Discord or Nightmare will screw up Fractal, Rewind will screw up Animate Weapon, Silence will screw up Miracle, and so on.  The one point he is correct about here is that some elements are better able to deal with threats than others, giving them inherent weaknesses.  (though ideally this will change as the game grows)  Fire and Darkness, for example, have removal for both creatures and permanents.  (so does entropy, but BE is pretty weak)  Life and Light, as two more examples, each have exactly one card capable of killing creatures, thorn carapace and holy light, respectively.

Quote
Another thing that really bothered me was the number of untargetable creatures. I just find that really unfun.
  Immortal and Phase Dragon are the only untargetable creatures.  The only ways to grant immortality to a creature are anubis, quintessence, and turquoise nymph.  There are also counters to immortal creatures, such as fire shield and thorn carapace.  Again, Jeff seems to ignore the more numerous shrouded creatures in M:TG when making his comparative argument, some of which are stronger than anything currently found in Elements.  (for those here who played Magic, they will surely remember the reign of Morphling, a.k.a. 'Superman')

Quote
Jeff: That’s another problem – there is no removal, at least none that would adequately deal with the main threats you would face. For the most part, if you wanted to get rid of a creature, you had to wait until you drew some sort of removal that would get rid of the creature, or pretty much not do anything at all.
Me: That, to me, seems like a pretty lame way to handle creatures.
Jeff: Yeah, I would agree.
So... the only way to remove a creature is to draw removal?  Okay... and that is different from every single other card game how exactly?  It also completely contradicts his earlier point
Quote
For example, answers, which are like counterspells in Magic, are way too cheap for what they do
where he claims that Elements' answers are undercosted and overpowered; here, he reverses his stance by saying that removal is completely inadequate, even though he just said that it's overpowered.  Which one is it, then, Jeff?  Overpowered, like you said the first time, or underpowered, like you said the second time?

Quote
Well the game is all about card advantage. There’s this card called Electrum Hourglass that gave you an extra card each turn. Pretty much you tried to get as many of those on the field as you could before your opponent, or at least have more than your opponent (i.e. steal from your opponent). Basically once a player got more Hourglasses, you could pretty much tell who was going to win from there.
Jeff once more selectively picks his comparisons to Magic.  Apparently he's never heard of Ancestral Recall or Necropotence.  He is right that Elements (and every other CCG in existence) is about card advantage at its core, but that's nothing unusual.  He also ignores indirect card advantage from cards like Owl's Eye, Firestorm, Steal, Otyugh, or a host of others, all of which can compete toe to toe with the hourglass.  He is right that the hourglass is a powerful card, and I would argue that it is one of the strongest cards in the game, and certainly Time's strongest card, but it's not an automatic win.


Quote
Oh, and about the pillars. Early on it’s all about getting lucky and drawing more pillars than your opponent. Since you can play as many pillars as you have each turn, then you pretty much lost if your opponent had way more than you did. I feel this was honestly bad for the game because it made the early game all about luck. Magic didn’t have this problem because you could only play one land per turn, so this seemed like a step backwards.
Another poor comparison.  Apparently, when Jeff plays Magic, both players always get exactly the same number of lands in their opening hands, or he would not have made this comment, because it is incorrect in any other context.  (I'll point to the famous M:TG match between Jon Finkel and Richard Garfield, in which Jon wtfpwned Richard because Richard had one land in his opening hand as a simple example, while Jon had an adequate number)  He also ignores the opposite problem, where a player draws too many pillars and not enough threats/removal, and loses that way instead.  And Jeff has never seen cards like Duress, Dark Ritual, Force of Will, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Sol Ring, or a host of other devastating turn 1 cards if he thinks Magic doesn't have exactly the same issue.

Quote
Me: Okay so it’s all about getting an advantage early on.
Jeff: Yeah like I said, you pretty much could tell who was going to win based on who had more advantage, or who got luckier, in the early game
I can do the same thing in Magic after about turn 4.  Big deal if you can do it in Elements, too.

Quote
Me: What would you say the typical meta was right before you left?
Jeff: The meta… well there was only really two types of decks viable. You had to play either rainbow or mono decks, and you couldn’t play any sort of deck that had a mix of two or three colors. I think they’ve made some changes since I left that makes those kinds of decks a bit more viable, but the problem was in the pillars. Like, your pillars either gave you one color or random colors. There wasn’t any sort of pillar that gave you a mix of two colors
This was true before pendulums existed.  Unfortunately for Jeff's timeline, pendulums were added to the game sometime before March 2011. (the date I personally started Elements, and pendulums, along with nymphs and some shards, already existed by then, and Jeff claims to have still been playing at this point)  The 'changes since [he] left' most likely refers to pendulums, and that blows his timeline out of the water.  He is correct in that trios/quartets/quintets are pretty much impossible to make competitively at this time (discounting duos that have something like animate weapon in them to make them ostentibly trios, but duos in fact) but duos can be made competitively, and even at the time Jeff was playing (the time he really was playing, not the time he says he did) you could have made a competitive duo by simple virtue of the fact that you could have used pillars of one element and your mark for a second element.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457821#msg457821
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 05:31:20 am »
^ is that enough proof for you?

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457835#msg457835
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 06:25:55 am »
Well, going through the interview, here are my thoughts:

Quote
Jeff: I played Elements for about a year. I started in 2010 and quit sometime in middle 2011
  This timeframe is extremely unlikely.  The interview does not mention shards, pendulums, or the arena.  It also does not mention nymphs, whose ultra-rarity should have come up as an interview topic, one way or another.  I can only conclude that either Jeff is remembering incorrectly or he overlooked some of the most important features of the metagame, namely shards and pendulums.
In an interview, why would he mention nymphs? It doesn't make sense in the context of the interview to mention something like this along with a time frame. You are attacking the source, and not the context of the article itself.

Quote
The game was really easy to learn
He is correct here.  You can learn how to play the game in under half an hour.  The simplicity of Elements is both a strong and a weak point.  It allows new players to enter quickly with a shallow learning curve, but it also means there is a certain lack of complexity; for example, no actions can be taken in the opponent's turn.  (another point that was not raised at all in the interview, either as comment or criticism)
True, but most online card games don't allow actions during the opponent's turn and as a developer working on an online card game, this is something he can probably assume I already know.

Quote
Weapon cards. I mean, they were ridiculously overpowered, but they were also really fun to use.
  This raises several flags in my mind.  Firstly, the weapons actually are not overpowered, compared to many other cards that would have existed at the time, such as nova.  Also the fact that he mentions weapons are overpowered, but makes no mention of shards, some of which really are overpowered (such as the old shard of gratitude at the time he claims to have played), indicates that the timeframe above is wrong.  Thirdly, the comment about enjoying the use of what Jeff perceives to be overpowered cards suggests in my mind a bit of a n00bish attitude towards gaming in general, despite his year of playing Elements.  (which is, unfortunately, an ad hominem argument, but quite likely still true)
Once again, you are attacking the source and not the context itself.

Quote
weapon cards often had repeatable effects that could be used each turn, and there weren’t really many answers for them. Like, some colors couldn’t even deal with weapon cards, and that alone made them unviable
  Some elements do indeed have trouble dealing with weapons, and permanents in general.  This alone doesn't make invididual elements unviable, but it does contribute to the weakness of elements like Life.
Reading between the lines, I believe he meant the competitive viability of a mono-Life deck is very low. Given the case that the meta he mentions during his time as being rainbow and mono decks, it simply means this type of mono deck wasn't feasible.

Quote
For example, answers, which are like counterspells in Magic, are way too cheap for what they do. Not only that, but they’re also way too specific in what they counter so there doesn’t seem to be a lot of cleverness in the ways they can be used. Some were even specific to certain colors, so those colors could deal with threats better than others.
This is largely untrue.  Jeff, who mentions playing Magic here, doesn't seem to realize that cards like Rewind, Thunderbolt, Explosion, or Steal have direct analogues in M:TG, and while I haven't done the math, I'd wager that if you quantitatively worked it out, they'd have comparable casting costs.  He apparently hasn't ever seen staple M:TG cards like Swords to Plowshares or Mana Drain or Force of Will or Lightning Bolt or any number of cheap answers that are more overpowered than any removal in Elements, none of which he seems to be thinking about.  As for cleverness in using the removal, it's not really that much different than a game like Magic, and apparently he's never used Butterfly Effect to lobotomize a creature, or killed something with liquid shadow or overdrive, or taken down flying titans with a fallen elf.  He also doesn't seem to realize that there are indirect counters to things; Discord or Nightmare will screw up Fractal, Rewind will screw up Animate Weapon, Silence will screw up Miracle, and so on.  The one point he is correct about here is that some elements are better able to deal with threats than others, giving them inherent weaknesses.  (though ideally this will change as the game grows)  Fire and Darkness, for example, have removal for both creatures and permanents.  (so does entropy, but BE is pretty weak)  Life and Light, as two more examples, each have exactly one card capable of killing creatures, thorn carapace and holy light, respectively.
After the interview, we did talk a bit more about Magic, and he mentioned Mana Drain and Lightning Bolt as very fun cards. In regards to Lightning Bolt, it wasn't that Lightning Bolt was overpowered, it's the fact that the set Lightning Bolt was released in contained many creatures that died instantly from the card, so during the particular meta in which Lightning Bolt was used, it was seen as an overpowered card. In the larger scope of the game itself, Lightning Bolt isn't overpowered.

Quote
Another thing that really bothered me was the number of untargetable creatures. I just find that really unfun.
  Immortal and Phase Dragon are the only untargetable creatures.  The only ways to grant immortality to a creature are anubis, quintessence, and turquoise nymph.  There are also counters to immortal creatures, such as fire shield and thorn carapace.  Again, Jeff seems to ignore the more numerous shrouded creatures in M:TG when making his comparative argument, some of which are stronger than anything currently found in Elements.  (for those here who played Magic, they will surely remember the reign of Morphling, a.k.a. 'Superman')
I believe he was referring to the time in which he played in saying that untargetable creatures were probably being used in abundance and the answers to them were probably not very high or too reliant on top-decking to deal with.

Quote
Jeff: That’s another problem – there is no removal, at least none that would adequately deal with the main threats you would face. For the most part, if you wanted to get rid of a creature, you had to wait until you drew some sort of removal that would get rid of the creature, or pretty much not do anything at all.
Me: That, to me, seems like a pretty lame way to handle creatures.
Jeff: Yeah, I would agree.
So... the only way to remove a creature is to draw removal?  Okay... and that is different from every single other card game how exactly?  It also completely contradicts his earlier point
Quote
For example, answers, which are like counterspells in Magic, are way too cheap for what they do
where he claims that Elements' answers are undercosted and overpowered; here, he reverses his stance by saying that removal is completely inadequate, even though he just said that it's overpowered.  Which one is it, then, Jeff?  Overpowered, like you said the first time, or underpowered, like you said the second time?
I actually don't see the confusion here. It is possible for cards to be drastically too cheap for what they do without being capable of taking care of larger threats.

Quote
Well the game is all about card advantage. There’s this card called Electrum Hourglass that gave you an extra card each turn. Pretty much you tried to get as many of those on the field as you could before your opponent, or at least have more than your opponent (i.e. steal from your opponent). Basically once a player got more Hourglasses, you could pretty much tell who was going to win from there.
Jeff once more selectively picks his comparisons to Magic.  Apparently he's never heard of Ancestral Recall or Necropotence.  He is right that Elements (and every other CCG in existence) is about card advantage at its core, but that's nothing unusual.  He also ignores indirect card advantage from cards like Owl's Eye, Firestorm, Steal, Otyugh, or a host of others, all of which can compete toe to toe with the hourglass.  He is right that the hourglass is a powerful card, and I would argue that it is one of the strongest cards in the game, and certainly Time's strongest card, but it's not an automatic win.
The point he was making is that once a player got card advantage, you could pretty much tell who was going to win. This implies Elements doesn't strongly support comebacks, which is one of the points Rosewater touches on in his Making Magic column about what makes games fun to play.

Quote
Oh, and about the pillars. Early on it’s all about getting lucky and drawing more pillars than your opponent. Since you can play as many pillars as you have each turn, then you pretty much lost if your opponent had way more than you did. I feel this was honestly bad for the game because it made the early game all about luck. Magic didn’t have this problem because you could only play one land per turn, so this seemed like a step backwards.
Another poor comparison.  Apparently, when Jeff plays Magic, both players always get exactly the same number of lands in their opening hands, or he would not have made this comment, because it is incorrect in any other context.  (I'll point to the famous M:TG match between Jon Finkel and Richard Garfield, in which Jon wtfpwned Richard because Richard had one land in his opening hand as a simple example, while Jon had an adequate number)  He also ignores the opposite problem, where a player draws too many pillars and not enough threats/removal, and loses that way instead.  And Jeff has never seen cards like Duress, Dark Ritual, Force of Will, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Sol Ring, or a host of other devastating turn 1 cards if he thinks Magic doesn't have exactly the same issue.
You're drawing a pretty large stretch to your argument (and making a few assumptions) when in reality what he's pointing at is the fact that Elements allows you to play any number of pillars per turn, whereas Magic restricted it to 1 per turn. This means a player doesn't start off with less advantage than his opponent simply because he drew less pillars on the first turn. Nowhere does this sort of argument assume both players get exactly the same number of lands in the opening hands.

Quote
Me: Okay so it’s all about getting an advantage early on.
Jeff: Yeah like I said, you pretty much could tell who was going to win based on who had more advantage, or who got luckier, in the early game
I can do the same thing in Magic after about turn 4.  Big deal if you can do it in Elements, too.
The difference, as I mentioned earlier, is what he is implying, which you don't seem to be seeing. He implies that Magic is better designed than Elements because Magic has a larger comeback factor than Elements, which Jeff claims is practically nonexistent.

Quote
Me: What would you say the typical meta was right before you left?
Jeff: The meta… well there was only really two types of decks viable. You had to play either rainbow or mono decks, and you couldn’t play any sort of deck that had a mix of two or three colors. I think they’ve made some changes since I left that makes those kinds of decks a bit more viable, but the problem was in the pillars. Like, your pillars either gave you one color or random colors. There wasn’t any sort of pillar that gave you a mix of two colors
This was true before pendulums existed.  Unfortunately for Jeff's timeline, pendulums were added to the game sometime before March 2011. (the date I personally started Elements, and pendulums, along with nymphs and some shards, already existed by then, and Jeff claims to have still been playing at this point)  The 'changes since [he] left' most likely refers to pendulums, and that blows his timeline out of the water.  He is correct in that trios/quartets/quintets are pretty much impossible to make competitively at this time (discounting duos that have something like animate weapon in them to make them ostentibly trios, but duos in fact) but duos can be made competitively, and even at the time Jeff was playing (the time he really was playing, not the time he says he did) you could have made a competitive duo by simple virtue of the fact that you could have used pillars of one element and your mark for a second element.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's the meta, of which the question referred to.

^ is that enough proof for you?
It's a bit superfluous to make an additional post like this. When I posted this here, I knew I was going to get a huge backlash since this community consists of currently-playing Elements players, but comments that add nothing to civil discussion and are more about 'one-upping' the OP really aren't needed here.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457837#msg457837
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 06:26:30 am »
Mostly just watching, but after reading the interview I got these impressions, which many here have pointed out:

Jeff is somewhat n00bish: He finds OP cards to be 'fun'
Jeff's memory is bad/Jeff didn't fully play the game: Omission of many important things during the "time he played"
Jeff is indecisive: Things change from OP to UP to okay
Jeff is selective: Jeff compares EtG mostly to MtG, and is selective in card comparison
The interview was insufficient: There weren't nearly enough questions to collect enough data or enough interviewees, plus the interviewee was severely dated and a poor subject
The interview was slanted: There was little to no talk of any positives and exclusively focused on problems with the game.
The interviewer didn't do enough background research: admitted right here in this thread

And yeah..."its about card advantage and luck" thats every card game I've ever played.

Edit: "It's a bit superfluous to make an additional post like this. When I posted this here, I knew I was going to get a huge backlash since this community consists of currently-playing Elements players, but comments that add nothing to civil discussion and are more about 'one-upping' the OP really aren't needed here."

It isnt "superflous" or "one-upping" When he makes a legitimate argument on -every- answer Jeff gave. 1)if you expected backlash, why post? So far you've only been satisfied by OldTree's agreement with some points. The intention of both interview and Forum post seems to look down on elements and call it a low quality game and raise awareness for your own game, perhaps to steal players. 2) Other than "is that enough proof for you" his responses were completely civil. I am probably offensive due to a mishap earlier today charging my argument a bit more. 3) as a "researcher" or "interviewer" you should be trying to check as many sources as possible, and you should prefer up to date date from viable sources rather than someone who either cant remember when he played or didnt play enough to know the game. As stands, you seem to have just searched to find a source that makes your argument the best.

About attacking the source: if the source isnt credible, your interview is invalid. I could interview someone who taught in the 60's and hasnt taught in 20 years, the data wouldnt be very good for a paper on proper teaching technique. Nor would it be good to interview a teacher who doesnt use material available to them, or one who likes using the easiest method possible.

And based on my pre-edit post and the points post-edit, I find the interviewer didnt do a good enough job, and should do another, more comprehensive interview addressing positives and negatives from better sources.
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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457840#msg457840
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 06:31:02 am »
Mostly just watching, but after reading the interview I got these impressions, which many here have pointed out:

Jeff is somewhat n00bish: He finds OP cards to be 'fun'
Jeff's memory is bad/Jeff didn't fully play the game: Omission of many important things during the "time he played"
Jeff is indecisive: Things change from OP to UP to okay
Jeff is selective: Jeff compares EtG mostly to MtG, and is selective in card comparison
The interview was insufficient: There weren't nearly enough questions to collect enough data or enough interviewees, plus the interviewee was severely dated and a poor subject
The interview was slanted: There was little to no talk of any positives and exclusively focused on problems with the game.
The interviewer didn't do enough background research: admitted right here in this thread

And yeah..."its about card advantage and luck" thats every card game I've ever played.
No surprise here - this is the kind of post one would expect as a reply to such a topic.

I did offer a few people in this thread who were able to see the interview more objectively an interview, but they declined.

Also, if the interviewee clearly perceives more negatives with a game than positives, it does little to continue pursuing positive traits that he can't elaborate on. Interviews of this context are informal and as an interviewer, I have to read what the interviewee seems to express between the lines, and through that construct a sort of flow to maintain the interview.

The truth of the matter is, this thread is populated with lots of hate on the source, but there doesn't seem to be any actual arguments (excepting a few posts in this thread) that adequately counter some of the statements made in the interview. As OldTrees has suggested, I would recommend players to make actual arguments as opposed to simply attacking the source.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457843#msg457843
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 06:33:09 am »
Ultimately, what I took away from this interview as a current Elements player is that the information he provided is largely out of date. Regardless of when he played or whether he was an expert on the subject, an interview with someone who both played the game in its current form and understood the mechanics of Elements relative to other card games would probably be more beneficial (i.e. not me).

Edit: Ninja'd.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457844#msg457844
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 06:36:24 am »
Ultimately, what I took away from this interview as a current Elements player is that the information he provided is largely out of date. Regardless of when he played or whether he was an expert on the subject, an interview with someone who both played the game in its current form and understood the mechanics of Elements relative to other card games would probably be more beneficial (i.e. not me).

Edit: Ninja'd.
Exactly. As a developer of an upcoming card game, I don't need the most expert opinion. In fact, there is little to gain from interviewing someone who loves this game because of the inherent bias that would result. What I want to know is why someone left a game, so I can build upon the lessons learned. I posted this interview here knowing that it would draw a lot of hate, but thankfully some of the more objectively-minded members of the community here have contributed some very useful information.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457846#msg457846
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 06:51:24 am »
I didnt expect people to be up so late. So, exeneva, I would hope you look at the edit i made and respond to it as well. Also worth noting: I dont love elements.Heck, I hardly play at all. My opinions should not hold much, if any, bias. Elements actually ranks 3rd or 4th of 7 card games I've played.

Also another few points 1)If you know youre going to just draw a bunch of hate, why post? 2)Jeff could easily be just as biased. Perhaps he quit elements because he wasnt very good at it (which isnt to say you have to be an expert to play) and so he has negative bias. either way, your information isnt comprehensive, or even very good. 3)Essentially insulting everyone who isnt doing what you want will offend "haters" and perhaps even those supporting your views. You don't make your case any better by going "Oh, youre just a fan boy, I dont have to credit what you say". 5) You -especially- dont want to say that current players or especially experts are no good for your research. they will often give you the best data, especially experts who know the games strengths and flaws inside and out. Need proof? The person you seem to like most, OldTrees, is a pretty old member from everything I've gathered in my time here (4ish monthes on forums).
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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457861#msg457861
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 08:11:07 am »
Well, going through the interview, here are my thoughts:

Quote
Well the game is all about card advantage. There’s this card called Electrum Hourglass that gave you an extra card each turn. Pretty much you tried to get as many of those on the field as you could before your opponent, or at least have more than your opponent (i.e. steal from your opponent). Basically once a player got more Hourglasses, you could pretty much tell who was going to win from there.
Jeff once more selectively picks his comparisons to Magic.  Apparently he's never heard of Ancestral Recall or Necropotence.  He is right that Elements (and every other CCG in existence) is about card advantage at its core, but that's nothing unusual.  He also ignores indirect card advantage from cards like Owl's Eye, Firestorm, Steal, Otyugh, or a host of others, all of which can compete toe to toe with the hourglass.  He is right that the hourglass is a powerful card, and I would argue that it is one of the strongest cards in the game, and certainly Time's strongest card, but it's not an automatic win
Card advantage is a type of advantage however it is less valuable in Elements than it is in Magic. The Quanta energy system allows casting a few expensive cards at the same time as you could cast several cheap cards. So the quantity of cards (card advantage) is less valuable than the efficiency of producing and using your quanta (field advantage). Card advantage only becomes significant in Elements once the quanta being produced starts to build a surplus instead of being used. However drawing a single expensive card can result in a comeback even if your opponent has many more cards than you. Jeff is mostly referring to mid game with a rainbow deck where quanta is in a ridiculous surplus. At such high levels of quanta production card draw is usually need to approach efficient usage of the quanta. However fewer pillars results in more non pillar cards and more efficient quanta usage.

Quote
Quote
Oh, and about the pillars. Early on it’s all about getting lucky and drawing more pillars than your opponent. Since you can play as many pillars as you have each turn, then you pretty much lost if your opponent had way more than you did. I feel this was honestly bad for the game because it made the early game all about luck. Magic didn’t have this problem because you could only play one land per turn, so this seemed like a step backwards.
Another poor comparison.  Apparently, when Jeff plays Magic, both players always get exactly the same number of lands in their opening hands, or he would not have made this comment, because it is incorrect in any other context.  (I'll point to the famous M:TG match between Jon Finkel and Richard Garfield, in which Jon wtfpwned Richard because Richard had one land in his opening hand as a simple example, while Jon had an adequate number)  He also ignores the opposite problem, where a player draws too many pillars and not enough threats/removal, and loses that way instead.  And Jeff has never seen cards like Duress, Dark Ritual, Force of Will, Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Sol Ring, or a host of other devastating turn 1 cards if he thinks Magic doesn't have exactly the same issue.
The Mana system does have the benefit of being theoretically easier to balance cards for and less prone to imbalance in general. Both games have problems with too much and too little energy (Pillars/Lands) in the stating hand. The Mana system reduces the impact by preventing you from using all your land immediately. Something that obscures this issue is the detail that Wizards of the Coast (makers of Magic) have much less desire to balance cards then Zanz does.


Notes:
Jeff played during the time that
SG's rainbow AntiFG deck was discovered and shared.
Anubis, Pulverizer, Eternity and Hourglass were extremely common cards to see used.
Immaterial Lava Golems, Firefly Queens and Otyughs were extremely common despite Quint not existing yet.

While I am one of the oldest members of the community and have gained a lot of knowledge about the game, I am not sufficiently experienced in actual gameplay of Elements to be used as an interviewee. I am lazy and thus still do not have a AI3 grinder upgraded. Thus I have not had nearly the PvP experience of some other member despite my ability to make accurate predictions from theory. majofa would be a reasonable subject to interview.
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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457872#msg457872
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 09:48:38 am »
I didnt expect people to be up so late. So, exeneva, I would hope you look at the edit i made and respond to it as well. Also worth noting: I dont love elements.Heck, I hardly play at all. My opinions should not hold much, if any, bias. Elements actually ranks 3rd or 4th of 7 card games I've played.

Also another few points 1)If you know youre going to just draw a bunch of hate, why post? 2)Jeff could easily be just as biased. Perhaps he quit elements because he wasnt very good at it (which isnt to say you have to be an expert to play) and so he has negative bias. either way, your information isnt comprehensive, or even very good. 3)Essentially insulting everyone who isnt doing what you want will offend "haters" and perhaps even those supporting your views. You don't make your case any better by going "Oh, youre just a fan boy, I dont have to credit what you say". 5) You -especially- dont want to say that current players or especially experts are no good for your research. they will often give you the best data, especially experts who know the games strengths and flaws inside and out. Need proof? The person you seem to like most, OldTrees, is a pretty old member from everything I've gathered in my time here (4ish monthes on forums).
I post this here because the Elements community deserves to know about this interview and have a response. Granted, most people seem to be oversimplifying many of Jeff's points which are already quite oversimplified from the interview, and that causes a lot of negative responses. I believe everyone is entitled to have a response, even if I don't like that response, as I'm always up for a good debate.

As for my information not being good, I disagree. I don't need 'up-to-date' information on Elements. That doesn't make sense as a developer of a game in the same genre, because my target audience is going to be the people who left Elements to find something else. Clearly at some point they were interested in the concept of an online card game, but something about Elements made them leave and I don't want to have that same problem - I want to attract the players who left Elements by "fixing" what they hated about Elements.

As for the 'fan-boy' comment, I never said I am discrediting everyone who enjoys playing Elements. The fact of the matter is that I am seeking information that will allow me to build a player base, and the information they give me is not going to help me do that since they are already committed to Elements. Jeff mentioned in the interview and also after the interview the things he liked about Elements. I don't need to hear that again from someone else, especially not from someone who plays Elements all the time because the information will clearly be biased.

As OldTrees mentioned himself, he has extensive knowledge of the game but he doesn't play it as much as what you have labeled 'fanboys.' OldTrees can be considered a game analyst - someone who plays a game but scrutinizes every detail in a way that is as objective as possible. He doesn't play Elements because he's addicted to it, he plays because he sees the exciting qualities (and therefore can have a good time when he wants some fun), but he also isn't so drawn into the game that his opinion becomes overly biased.

Quote
It isnt "superflous" or "one-upping" When he makes a legitimate argument on -every- answer Jeff gave.
This was in reference to the single post he made that didn't do anything to further the discussion.

Quote
About attacking the source: if the source isnt credible, your interview is invalid. I could interview someone who taught in the 60's and hasnt taught in 20 years, the data wouldnt be very good for a paper on proper teaching technique. Nor would it be good to interview a teacher who doesnt use material available to them, or one who likes using the easiest method possible.
And that's where I see oversimplification once again. Most of the replies on here have attacked the source based on small details, not the validity of the points to actually prove the source was invalid as a whole. Until the source is proven to be invalid in what he has told me (as opposed to saying he's invalid because he never mentioned quanta or the ultra-rare nymphs or other moot points), then Jeff remains a valid source.

I find this thread very interesting as a whole, because I'm starting to see how the Elements community is broken up. I just wonder if the thread will ever reach the point in which the responses are more objective about the points he made as opposed to simply being biased responses by those who currently are in love with the game and refuse to look at it from a more holistic point of view.

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Re: An Interview With A Former Elements Player https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36390.msg457873#msg457873
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 10:08:17 am »
a game analyst - someone who plays a game but scrutinizes every detail in a way that is as objective as possible.
As for my information not being good, I disagree. I don't need 'up-to-date' information on Elements. That doesn't make sense as a developer of a game in the same genre, because my target audience is going to be the people who left Elements to find something else. Clearly at some point they were interested in the concept of an online card game, but something about Elements made them leave and I don't want to have that same problem - I want to attract the players who left Elements by "fixing" what they hated about Elements.
Yes you will need up-to-date information on Elements for the following reasons
1) Games have pros and cons. To attract the players who left Elements you will need to match or improve the pros of Elements while fixing the cons.
2) Sometimes a false con (something that is seen as a con but is not) is observed. This is usually due to lack of sufficient analysis (which would be a common trait).
3) Games change and usually improve. Up to date information will let you see what new pros and cons emerged and how effective/ineffective the solutions to previous cons were.
In short: You will need to look at more recent information to have obtained all the lessons that using EtG as a example would provide.
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