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Offline Zso_ZsoTopic starter

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AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443119#msg443119
« on: December 28, 2011, 03:44:32 pm »
I built an arena deck around the combo: Titan + animate-weapon + overdrive + quintessence
I wanted to have 3 copies of the combo cards in the deck, but unfortunately, at the moment I only have 2 upgraded overdrive cards, so the 3rd one is un-upped accelerate. When I tested it, I noticed a couple of things a human player would not do.

  • The AI will play partial combo as soon as he can, e.g. Titan + animate + overdrive without protection. This can be a problem if the enemy has either rewind or twin-universe.
  • The AI 2 turns later replaced the overdrive on the Titan with the slower Accelerate !?!?!
OK, I can understand #1, the AI doesn't know the whole deck, and just plays whatever he can from his hand. Wouldn't hold back the cards to wait for the quint, that's alright.

But #2, is just outright dumb! Why would it replace a more efficient spell already on the creature with a less efficient version ?
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Offline oblivion1212

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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443130#msg443130
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2011, 04:29:33 pm »
#2

it seems as though the case is that the AI prefer cards of higher casting cost if it would give the same effect...
same thing happens when AI uses improved dusk, then use dusk mantle (unupped version of imp. dusk)...
it also prioritizes such, in the case of stealing mindgate and upped mindgate, AI would prefer the unupped because it is 5 :aether while the other being 4 :aether

that, or it's just stupid 8)

Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443185#msg443185
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2011, 09:58:37 pm »
As far as AI goes it's stupid, it's not even really AI, it's hard coded rules...
No algorithms and No learning capabilities... 
So it's fair to say it's stupid, what's worse is it's programmed 'stupid'... 
But not being flash programmer, I'm not to say it was stupidly programmed as I have no idea what type of overhead is involved with doing those types of calculations would have inside flash, it's flash not C++, it's kind of clunky for things like that.

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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443188#msg443188
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2011, 10:27:14 pm »
I think the AI thinks like this:

If creature has enough HP, and does not already Acceleration, then it will play Acceleration on that creature.

If creature has enough HP, and does not already have Overdrive, then it will play Overdrive on that creature.

But since Overdrive =/= Acceleration in the mind of the AI, it will flip between the two.

Offline petersenk

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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443234#msg443234
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 04:00:18 am »
The problem is that there is only one set of rules for all the AI, regardless of their deck. That approach is bound to fail.

A better option would be to have one set of rules for one deck, which then of course is a lot less complex (with the general rules as fallback). And then there should be an interface, so everyone could "programm" their own rules for their arena decks. I'm sure, with only a small set of "meta-rules" (such as "never do this combo", "only play this combo" (so wait until it's complete), blacklist cardA on these cards, prioritize targets for cardB in this order, ...) so much could be gained. And then imagine if you statistically process these rules, to automatically generate new AI decks...

Alas, zanz doesn't seem to invest much into this game anymore, so whatever...

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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443238#msg443238
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 04:41:47 am »
The problem is that there is only one set of rules for all the AI, regardless of their deck. That approach is bound to fail.

A better option would be to have one set of rules for one deck, which then of course is a lot less complex (with the general rules as fallback). And then there should be an interface, so everyone could "programm" their own rules for their arena decks. I'm sure, with only a small set of "meta-rules" (such as "never do this combo", "only play this combo" (so wait until it's complete), blacklist cardA on these cards, prioritize targets for cardB in this order, ...) so much could be gained. And then imagine if you statistically process these rules, to automatically generate new AI decks...

Alas, zanz doesn't seem to invest much into this game anymore, so whatever...
It's not bound to fail, if it encompasses the right stuff. Sure, the AI as it is now makes colossal mistakes, but its workable. I'm no programmer, but it seems to me that the AI works relatively well considering the current number of possibilities.

Making a separate set of rules for every single deck would take a lot more effort and produce minimally beneficial results. To 'program your own rules' you'd have to provide a list of actions to meet every scenario. While it sounds good in theory, I'd imagine this to be a time consuming process. Even if you want to keep the basic AI rules and make a few tweaks, you'd have to dive into the code and pick out the right spots to tweak it. It might get you a few more wins in the end, but I don't think it would be worth the time spent on it.
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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg443242#msg443242
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 06:16:04 am »
 I've also done script AI programming for custom maps for games, I've done class one brains (learning machines) for games and business purposes, I've done fuzzy logic systems mainly for industrial purposes, I've toyed but no serious use of organic algorithms but I might get to soon for a healthcare company...

I am no AI expert, perhaps a journey man of sorts, and I don't know completely how elements is designed and programmed; however, I am pretty certain it uses a client/server like function where flash is the client side...  this does not lend it to learning systems.  The game itself does not lend itself to fuzzy logic either.  Scripting each deck is both tedious, requires additional knowledge outside the game, and takes away time from playing the game for the player and a lot of time away to update and re update the AI decks for each update, only the algorithm method would work here outside of hard fast rules programming, this requires the most knowledge of which not every developer has.

Again I am but a journey man, but something like HTML5/JavaScript front end with a Java/C# backend recode job, might lend this game to be able to make use of a database backed learning system that organically build's it's schema and relationships, and bind to a series to three algorithms, a planning algorithm that makes awareness of it's deck calculating things out like highest damage rate and what combinations in the past based on the learning portion result in good use.  A second algorithm to track possible events based on what the opponent plays, so the opponent has a aether mark, phase shield is a possibility, based off of previous games it was best to hold defrags,  Then as an overall a field control algorithm that takes these two into account but makes the final decision based off of a third set of rules, that handles the field,   ahhh a sundial, is in play, don't spend the sky blitz yet.

Just my two cents

Offline mesaprotector

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Re: AI stupidiy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35162.msg447158#msg447158
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 02:14:04 am »
Speaking of AI stupidity...



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