Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

[Fallower]

The problem is that the current PVP matches are slow as hell to me, since theres a lot of lag between turns. Coupled with desyncs, I think I prefer the AI instead of PVP... Until the PVP aspect of this game is improved, I think I'll be sticking with upgraded cards costing the same as they currently are. Or maybe at least until Zanz creates a new goal for people who have achieved an upgraded deck.


But still, I feel that the unupgraded portion of the game is largely ignored in favor of those upgraded decks. People CAN actually form good decks with unupgraded cards, to me the long first half of the game where you dont have any upgraded cards is the time where you get to experiment with unupgraded decks. If you make it any easier to get upgraded cards, you could just throw the whole idea of unupgraded cards.

[dougempty]

The problem is that the current PVP matches are slow as hell to me, since theres a lot of lag between turns. Coupled with desyncs, I think I prefer the AI instead of PVP... Until the PVP aspect of this game is improved, I think I'll be sticking with upgraded cards costing the same as they currently are. Or maybe at least until Zanz creates a new goal for people who have achieved an upgraded deck.

i agree that pvp needs work. between an already slow computer (like 2-3 frames per sec) and desyncs, i don't play it either but it is there and it is always gonna be a place with a challenge for people with upgraded decks.

But still, I feel that the unupgraded portion of the game is largely ignored in favor of those upgraded decks. People CAN actually form good decks with unupgraded cards, to me the long first half of the game where you dont have any upgraded cards is the time where you get to experiment with unupgraded decks. If you make it any easier to get upgraded cards, you could just throw the whole idea of unupgraded cards.

there it is again. why is 1500 the perfect number? any cheaper and just throw it all away. only 5% (or whatever) are using upgraded cards. we should just throw them away, too. anyway, just the first 20-30 need to be cheaper to close in that massive gap between your first deck and your first upgraded deck that scares all the casual gamers away.

once you get upgraded cards, that doesn't mean your never gonna use unupgraded cards again (just most of the time). and certainly there are interesting decks without upgrades but the question is, would people play more if they had access to more cards? and i think that it should be obvious that they would.

[Sir Valimont]

calling your entire collection your deck is what threw me. i call the 30-60 cards i'm currently using my deck.

so if we look at the most popular online multiplayer games, we see that the only reason they are the most popular is because of a precise 2-4 percent of people who have "beat" them...? and that makes it the best possible game mechanic...?


...but anyway, i'm not talking about myself. i have several upgraded decks and i enjoy a challenge. i have been around since close to the beginning and i got many people playing this game and i watched as most of them quit when the upgrades came out because they were so expensive. i'm talking about them. i'm talking about the casual players and the busy players that make up the majority of gamers that can't upgrade a deck in anywhere near two weeks. i'm talking about this game and if it's gonna spread to the widest possible audience, it needs to be easier on and more fun for the casual players without losing to much depth for the hardcore player.

i have voiced my support for many different ideas that could satisfy both the hardcore players and the casual players. but if they simply lower the cost for upgrades and the game gets a little shorter to "beat" but more people actually play it, i think that would be good for the game and the community as well (and i will also point out that pvp is alway going to be a challenge, even to a player with all the upgrades.)

because some people stop at one upgraded deck is not a reason to make it very difficult for the majority who don't or can't play often. besides, maybe some of those people who stopped, stopped because that one upgraded deck had been so time consuming.

and maybe you shouldn't be so eager to dismiss someone as just one of the so called short sighted and selfish majority.

Don't get the wrong impression about what I said ... I'm not calling anyone selfish. I think that the short-sightedness that comes from being a player rather than a game designer is a completely normal phenomenon, and probably a good thing. I also don't mean to dismiss those views; in certain areas players are best placed to know what design should look like going forward.

In any event you made some very good points. I guess I'd say that my gut tells me a lot of these issues are going to come down to what kind of a game Elements hopes to be (it might be a question for Zanzarino). If it intends to stay a home-brewed, small-community effort, it makes more sense for costs to be lower like you imply. But if the intention is to massively increase the player base and being a major MMOG, then it makes more sense to follow the long-path-to-success model. I'm definitely not advocating one over the other per se, but it seems to me that the latter path is being chosen (at least in theory for the moment -- it remains to be seen whether the game has the longevity to get there).

[vile]

no actually i wouldnt because having all upped deck makes you feel good about yourself that you wasted your time going though all those hours finding a decent deck and grinding.

if everyone had upped decks there would be no point

I agree completely here, but i believe if upgraded cards were easier to acquire alot of people would quit the game as well.  Im pulled both ways

[Fallower]

there it is again. why is 1500 the perfect number? any cheaper and just throw it all away. only 5% (or whatever) are using upgraded cards. we should just throw them away, too. anyway, just the first 20-30 need to be cheaper to close in that massive gap between your first deck and your first upgraded deck that scares all the casual gamers away.

once you get upgraded cards, that doesn't mean your never gonna use unupgraded cards again (just most of the time). and certainly there are interesting decks without upgrades but the question is, would people play more if they had access to more cards? and i think that it should be obvious that they would.

But the time taken to get your upgraded cards doesn't seem that long to me. With like 2 upgrades you can already get a decent FG farmer now. If your 5% includes everyone who has played elements before, I guess its obvious that many people left because they didn't like the game. If you want to attract people, use features instead of cards. Those people that come and go aren't even MOTIVATED to build decks; I think the current number of unupgraded cards is ample enough for them to start building their own decks.

1500 is definitely not perfect; its just a random number that works well. I think that people only want upgraded cards so much because they see everyone in the forum having them, and they want an easier way to get them.

And now, lets talk about why I ever came to know the game and enjoy it. I had someone to PVP with most of the time, to pit my decks against, during the unupgraded portion of the game. It was slow, but still a lot of fun building my own decks. Quests pulled me along when the game got stale, and it was a pleasant surprise when I found out I could upgrade my cards. I only started using the forum after that, noticing new decks and combinations I could try which worked better.

True, the unupgraded portion could have been made shorter. But right now, you can definitely say that the unupgraded section is used well, that the experienced players have something to occupy them. Until Zanz makes any new features for the game, the current system is working fine and dandy.

[dougempty]

Don't get the wrong impression about what I said ... I'm not calling anyone selfish.

i'm sorry. i must have been confused. but your gonna have to explain this

The majority of comments left by the majority of players on the majority of fansites for the majority of games are just like this. Players always tend to be biased towards what would personally make the game easier for themselves, given the goal of victory, but with only short-term benefits.

it sure doesn't sound like your calling anyone selfish...  it sounds like your calling (almost) everyone selfish

I think that the short-sightedness that comes from being a player rather than a game designer is a completely normal phenomenon

of course you do cause you're a selfless game designer, right? (what have you done by the way that makes you so superior?)

In any event you made some very good points. I guess I'd say that my gut tells me a lot of these issues are going to come down to what kind of a game Elements hopes to be (it might be a question for Zanzarino). If it intends to stay a home-brewed, small-community effort, it makes more sense for costs to be lower like you imply. But if the intention is to massively increase the player base and being a major MMOG, then it makes more sense to follow the long-path-to-success model. I'm definitely not advocating one over the other per se, but it seems to me that the latter path is being chosen (at least in theory for the moment -- it remains to be seen whether the game has the longevity to get there).

major MMOGs are widely popular among a small group of gamers known as hardcore gamers. hardcore gamers play more often but casual gamers are the majority. lower costs would expand the fan base to casual gamers while a high upgrade cost keeps the game only accessable to the hardcore gamers. high upgrade costs keep the community small, not the other way around. but it's not black or white. this game doesn't have to cater to only one group. a game can have something for both groups. if they make just the first upgraded deck cheaper, it would be more likely to hook the casual gamers and all the subsequent upgrades can stay the same price so the game doesn't lose replay value for the hardcore gamers.

because casual gamers want fun and satisfaction from a game sooner rather than later doesn't make them overly selfish or short sighted simply because... it's just a game! if thats how they want to have fun, and it's not hurting anyone, it's fine. but i could probly make a case for people wanting the game to stay accessable only to hardcore gamers as being selfish and short-sighted.

[dougempty]

the current system is working fine and dandy.

for some but you gotta look at it from the casual players point of view. sure, it's easy enough to start but it looks like an eternity to get anywhere. and one unupgraded false god farmer is not gonna keep them interested. they wanna play their own strategies.

with pvp mode, the upgrades don't need to be so expensive to keep hardcore players interested. and anyway, only the first 20-30 upgrades need to be cheaper so that the huge gap between your first deck and your first upgraded deck closes up some and stops scaring away all my casual gamer friends.

[Fallower]

the current system is working fine and dandy.

for some but you gotta look at it from the casual players point of view. sure, it's easy enough to start but it looks like an eternity to get anywhere. and one unupgraded false god farmer is not gonna keep them interested. they wanna play their own strategies.

with pvp mode, the upgrades don't need to be so expensive to keep hardcore players interested. and anyway, only the first 20-30 upgrades need to be cheaper so that the huge gap between your first deck and your first upgraded deck closes up some and stops scaring away all my casual gamer friends.

And then they don't touch unupgraded cards ever again, leaving after a short while because they find the game boring. Don't lure them to this game because of upgrades, let them experiment with unupgraded cards themselves. Play with them abit with your unupgraded card decks, and stop hurrying them to get upgraded cards.

Sorry but I'm just a little skeptic about more people playing because of this.

[dougempty]

And then they don't touch unupgraded cards ever again, leaving after a short while because they find the game boring. Don't lure them to this game because of upgrades, let them experiment with unupgraded cards themselves. Play with them abit with your unupgraded card decks, and stop hurrying them to get upgraded cards.

you're making way too many assumptions. i didn't try to lure anybody here with upgrades. i got most of the people who i got to try this game to try it before upgrades even came out. and when the upgrades did come out, they quit. now when i tell people about the game, most of them like it until they hear about the upgrades. but i get them to try to play it anyway and it mostly just doesn't stick. now, these are people who play CCGs all the time and should like something like this but most of them complain about the upgrades and just quit.  the game drops off in pace until you get your first upgraded deck where it picks back up. that gap is what is turning the majority of people (or at least of my friends) off.

making it easier (easier not easy) to get just your first upgraded deck doesn't shorten the game as much as it will open it up. more people will actually try to achieve an upgraded deck and maybe those people who would've stopped after one deck would feel less drained and bored by the experience and would keep playing. and making it easier to get just your first upgraded deck still leaves many many cards to upgrade and pvp after you've finished that. upgrading all your cards would still be a long road for the hardcore gamers, players would just get a jump start down that road to get them hooked.

having an upgraded deck doesn't mean never using unupgraded cards again. i keep my sundials unupgraded and i have a friend who keeps his novas unupgraded. having upgraded cards just means more options. but if it did mean never using any unupgraded cards ever again, would that be worse than keeping the game inaccessable and uninteresting to the majority of gamers?

[Fallower]

If it meant more options, then all unupgraded cards should be different from the original. Or even better, made into new cards. And you know, we should simply remove unupgraded cards. They're so unpopular and rarely used, why keep them?

Aww, when upgrades were created, all the old players left. They simply did not like the new cards, they felt that all of them should come free, then they can just go back to their own CCG after testing all of the cards elements have to offer. You know what, I think that douge hit the spot with his post, since everyone would keep playing and playing and playing after they got their first upgraded deck, since they have access to every card in this wonderful game straight away. Since doesn't everyone hate this game because they don't have access to all the cards?

/sarcasm and assumptions of what happened when upgraded cards were released

[Sir Valimont]

The majority of comments left by the majority of players on the majority of fansites for the majority of games are just like this. Players always tend to be biased towards what would personally make the game easier for themselves, given the goal of victory, but with only short-term benefits.

it sure doesn't sound like your calling anyone selfish...  it sounds like your calling (almost) everyone selfish

Not at all. I said players tend to be limited by their own experiences. Many gamers on RPG fansites make suggestions about a new sword that's more powerful than the best sword in the game, or a new shield, or a new familiar, along the same lines. Gamers come from a different perspective than a game designer, so it's only natural that they don't have game balance as a foremost concern.

I think that the short-sightedness that comes from being a player rather than a game designer is a completely normal phenomenon

of course you do cause you're a selfless game designer, right? (what have you done by the way that makes you so superior?)

This is just a silly comment. I never made claims to being superior. I am talking about the difference in perspective between someone who plays games and someone who designs them. Both types of people exist. They are different. And they tend to have a different context for seeing things. All of those statements are perfectly accurate, as far as I'm concerned.

In any event you made some very good points. I guess I'd say that my gut tells me a lot of these issues are going to come down to what kind of a game Elements hopes to be (it might be a question for Zanzarino). If it intends to stay a home-brewed, small-community effort, it makes more sense for costs to be lower like you imply. But if the intention is to massively increase the player base and being a major MMOG, then it makes more sense to follow the long-path-to-success model. I'm definitely not advocating one over the other per se, but it seems to me that the latter path is being chosen (at least in theory for the moment -- it remains to be seen whether the game has the longevity to get there).

major MMOGs are widely popular among a small group of gamers known as hardcore gamers. hardcore gamers play more often but casual gamers are the majority. lower costs would expand the fan base to casual gamers while a high upgrade cost keeps the game only accessable to the hardcore gamers. high upgrade costs keep the community small, not the other way around. but it's not black or white. this game doesn't have to cater to only one group. a game can have something for both groups. if they make just the first upgraded deck cheaper, it would be more likely to hook the casual gamers and all the subsequent upgrades can stay the same price so the game doesn't lose replay value for the hardcore gamers.

because casual gamers want fun and satisfaction from a game sooner rather than later doesn't make them overly selfish or short sighted simply because... it's just a game! if thats how they want to have fun, and it's not hurting anyone, it's fine. but i could probly make a case for people wanting the game to stay accessable only to hardcore gamers as being selfish and short-sighted.

No, major MMOGs are not widely popular among a "small group of gamers known as hardcore gamers." By definition major MMOGs that have MILLIONS of players are not popular among a small group of anything. Those groups are HUGE. And the most successful MMOGs -- WoW, RuneScape, etc -- follow the same extreme-long-term growth pattern I've described. It may be counterintuitive or difficult to understand at first glance ... but as I've been saying in fact a longer-term growth pattern entices MORE players rather than fewer (as you seem to think). And it's not just because I say so; it's a simple fact that can be verified just by looking at the experience / growth curves of any of the top online games in terms of popularity.

[dougempty]

If it meant more options, then all unupgraded cards should be different from the original.

if even one is different then yes, that means more options.

And you know, we should simply remove unupgraded cards. They're so unpopular and rarely used, why keep them?

i suppose you are refering to this

any cheaper and just throw it all away. only 5% (or whatever) are using upgraded cards. we should just throw them away, too. 

i said that (sarcastically) because you said this

If you make it any easier to get upgraded cards, you could just throw the whole idea of unupgraded cards.

if upgrades costed exactly the same as unupgraded cards, then you could just throw them away. they could get a lot cheaper before that was the case.

Aww, when upgrades were created, all the old players left.

no, i said that 4 out of 5 of my friends who were new players at that time left.

They simply did not like the new cards, they felt that all of them should come free

no, i'm talking about the people with little time to play who feel like their time would be wasted trying to get an upgraded deck at the current pace

then they can just go back to their own CCG after testing all of the cards elements have to offer.

they did and that didn't help the elements community.  -1 karma

I think that douge hit the spot with his post, since everyone would keep playing and playing and playing after they got their first upgraded deck, since they have access to every card in this wonderful game straight away. Since doesn't everyone hate this game because they don't have access to all the cards?

i've said many times now that just the first 20-30 upgrades need to be cheaper to hook casual players better. this would not give you access to every single card in this game straight away. it would give you access to 20-30 of the 600 or 700 potential upgrades in less time than you are currently able but would still be far more time than buying an unupgraded deck.