Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

[Sir Valimont]

This is a question of balance. And the answer is in front of us.

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

I am not one to hold back on constructive criticism, and there may be a few issues on game balance with Elements (like quanta production), but the cost of upgrades is extremely good the way it is now.

[dougempty]

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

balanced to you means only 5% should have an upgraded deck?

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

finding grinding boring does not prove that grinding is enticing. people grinding today does not mean those people will keep grinding tomarrow. i have 4 times as many friends who quit over the upgrades than people who stuck with it. the casual players are gonna go somewhere they don't feel hopelessly lower class.

i like the idea of scaled up costs for upgrades as you get more of them but only if there is a cap. i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

[Vineroz]

What i basically want to say is that if you take away the high cost you're taking away a big reason for us to grind.

What I concern is the speed. When I can foresee that I need to play for three years to get a satisfaction status in this game, and wouldn't achieve much when I play in the few coming months, I would likely quit. My idea is that you can shorten this play time from very long to just long. And I really think that the update speed is fast enough to keep those who "finished" the game.

[Fallower]

But isn't grinding part of every multiplayer game? It extends the time a person plays, without constantly having to add new content for the game.

What i basically want to say is that if you take away the high cost you're taking away a big reason for us to grind.

What I concern is the speed. When I can foresee that I need to play for three years to get a satisfaction status in this game, and wouldn't achieve much when I play in the few coming months, I would likely quit. My idea is that you can shorten this play time from very long to just long. And I really think that the update speed is fast enough to keep those who "finished" the game.

Some people I know even count defeating their first false god as finishing the game, its all up to you on what you want to achieve. If you just rely on update speed to keep people here, then something is very wrong with the game. Updates would have to be massive, not the production of five or six cards elements already has, which are usually more or less ignored by the players in their grinding.

If you think that it takes a long time to get upgraded cards, just leave this game alone. The main fun of the game for me is pitting my decks against other players or the AI, and I guess a person who keeps wanting to go for upgraded cards won't get that satisfaction.

[Sir Valimont]

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

balanced to you means only 5% should have an upgraded deck?

Of course not, that's not what I said. I have several completely upgraded decks myself.

Balanced means that only 5% (actually less than that) of the players have a PERFECT deck, meaning that they've done everything they can do and for them the game is basically "won." In other words, they have 6 copies of every single upgraded card already (except maybe nymphs in some cases).

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

finding grinding boring does not prove that grinding is enticing. people grinding today does not mean those people will keep grinding tomarrow. i have 4 times as many friends who quit over the upgrades than people who stuck with it. the casual players are gonna go somewhere they don't feel hopelessly lower class.

i like the idea of scaled up costs for upgrades as you get more of them but only if there is a cap. i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

The majority of comments left by the majority of players on the majority of fansites for the majority of games are just like this. Players always tend to be biased towards what would personally make the game easier for themselves, given the goal of victory, but with only short-term benefits.

Having a completely upgraded deck represents the final stage of development for many players' accounts. That is to say, the whole point of the game is to get to that one perfect deck that can take down False Gods, etc. That goal should be hard to reach -- and by MMOG standards it should probably take a year or two rather than a few weeks like it does in Elements.

The fact that the most popular multiplayer online games require THOUSANDS of hours of grinding to achieve the "perfect" character is not insignificant. The truth is that the more players within the player base do NOT have a perfect account, the better; it keeps more people playing longer. The tradeoff is that if your goals are literally impossible to reach, there is a bit of a letdown for those players who want to be the "best." Generally the ratio you'll find (just look around at other games) is a very small percentage like 2-4 percent of active players who are in that range. Of course this depends in part on how long the game has been running as well.

[ayoth]

i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

Base of 750 and adding 50 was my first idea but after seeing you guys talked changed to 1k+100. What do you think of the former?

It would give 15 ups before it reaches 1.5k, so for a 30 card deck you would have it half upgraded...

[dougempty]

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

balanced to you means only 5% should have an upgraded deck?

Of course not, that's not what I said. I have several completely upgraded decks myself.

Balanced means that only 5% (actually less than that) of the players have a PERFECT deck, meaning that they've done everything they can do and for them the game is basically "won." In other words, they have 6 copies of every single upgraded card already (except maybe nymphs in some cases).

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

finding grinding boring does not prove that grinding is enticing. people grinding today does not mean those people will keep grinding tomarrow. i have 4 times as many friends who quit over the upgrades than people who stuck with it. the casual players are gonna go somewhere they don't feel hopelessly lower class.

i like the idea of scaled up costs for upgrades as you get more of them but only if there is a cap. i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

The majority of comments left by the majority of players on the majority of fansites for the majority of games are just like this. Players always tend to be biased towards what would personally make the game easier for themselves, given the goal of victory, but with only short-term benefits.

Having a completely upgraded deck represents the final stage of development for many players' accounts. That is to say, the whole point of the game is to get to that one perfect deck that can take down False Gods, etc. That goal should be hard to reach -- and by MMOG standards it should probably take a year or two rather than a few weeks like it does in Elements.

The fact that the most popular multiplayer online games require THOUSANDS of hours of grinding to achieve the "perfect" character is not insignificant. The truth is that the more players within the player base do NOT have a perfect account, the better; it keeps more people playing longer. The tradeoff is that if your goals are literally impossible to reach, there is a bit of a letdown for those players who want to be the "best." Generally the ratio you'll find (just look around at other games) is a very small percentage like 2-4 percent of active players who are in that range. Of course this depends in part on how long the game has been running as well.

calling your entire collection your deck is what threw me. i call the 30-60 cards i'm currently using my deck.

so if we look at the most popular online multiplayer games, we see that the only reason they are the most popular is because of a precise 2-4 percent of people who have "beat" them...? and that makes it the best possible game mechanic...?


...but anyway, i'm not talking about myself. i have several upgraded decks and i enjoy a challenge. i have been around since close to the beginning and i got many people playing this game and i watched as most of them quit when the upgrades came out because they were so expensive. i'm talking about them. i'm talking about the casual players and the busy players that make up the majority of gamers that can't upgrade a deck in anywhere near two weeks. i'm talking about this game and if it's gonna spread to the widest possible audience, it needs to be easier on and more fun for the casual players without losing to much depth for the hardcore player.

i have voiced my support for many different ideas that could satisfy both the hardcore players and the casual players. but if they simply lower the cost for upgrades and the game gets a little shorter to "beat" but more people actually play it, i think that would be good for the game and the community as well (and i will also point out that pvp is alway going to be a challenge, even to a player with all the upgrades.)

because some people stop at one upgraded deck is not a reason to make it very difficult for the majority who don't or can't play often. besides, maybe some of those people who stopped, stopped because that one upgraded deck had been so time consuming.

and maybe you shouldn't be so eager to dismiss someone as just one of the so called short sighted and selfish majority.

i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

Base of 750 and adding 50 was my first idea but after seeing you guys talked changed to 1k+100. What do you think of the former?

It would give 15 ups before it reaches 1.5k, so for a 30 card deck you would have it half upgraded...

ya, i think that this would be better but i still think it should be cheaper. base of 500 (or even less) sounds good to me. that would give you at least 20 upgrades. i think that getting that first upgraded deck is going to hook people better.

[ayoth]

The base seems low, maybe 1k+10 a time... LOL That would be 50 cards before reaching 1.5k. Or rising exponentially and basing at 750 and starting at 10. So, 750, 750+10, (760), 750+10+20 (780), 750+10+20+30 (810)...

However, the selling mechanism would have to be tweaked...

[dougempty]

at the current price for upgrades, it would take a new player making on average 50 electrum a game, 900 games to completely upgrade one deck (30 cards). at base 500, raising 50 with each upgrade, and then capping off at 1500, it would still take 720 games. that still seems like a lot to me. at 10 games an hour, thats 72 hours. i'd like to see something in the ballpark of 30 hours to upgrade your first deck. i don't know many people who spend more than thirty hours playing any given PS3/ 360 game, let alone a flash game.

[dougempty]

10 games an hour at 50 electrum a game is 500 per hour. i checked jmdt's win time study to see if my ballpark was accurate and the fastest unupgraded deck there, the shieker rush, averaged about 530 per hour. the upgraded shrieker rush averaged 1200. my estimate was low. it's probly closer to 65 hours when you consider that the deck will make more money as it gets upgraded (thats just an estimate. do you wanna do the math? ) and this is best case senario with ideal conditions and nose to the grindstone

[Daytripper]

In the last few posts we see where the problem is. ''The game is finished when you have nearly all the cards.''

That is a strange assumption. By that logic I have also ''finished chess and checkers,'' because I bought all the pieces, and at once. That is not the idea though. When you have all the pieces, then you can START playing.

If the game is really balanced, you can pitch several counter decks against others. Sometimes you would win, sometimes not. That's why you need a lot of decks.

While the prices don't have to change, I say, give people a goal. Tournaments are very difficult now, but scoring rating in pvp only is not. Yeah I already said that I know. Beating the AI is never the goal of a 1 VS 1 game. Check the game sites around. AI's are ignored.

[dougempty]

In the last few posts we see where the problem is. ''The game is finished when you have nearly all the cards.''

That is a strange assumption. By that logic I have also ''finished chess and checkers,'' because I bought all the pieces, and at once. That is not the idea though. When you have all the pieces, then you can START playing.

lol! exactly! that's what i'm saying!

While the prices don't have to change, I say, give people a goal. Tournaments are very difficult now, but scoring rating in pvp only is not. Yeah I already said that I know. Beating the AI is never the goal of a 1 VS 1 game. Check the game sites around. AI's are ignored.

i agree, the game needs to be geared toward pvp as the final frontier instead of being swept aside but that's not gonna hook the casual players. when they realize how long it takes to get a competitive deck, they quit.