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Toge111

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Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386885#msg386885
« on: August 30, 2011, 08:34:36 pm »
It's obvious by now that a damage-based element that has the best CC and PC capabilities of any element can't be right. Why is nothing being done about it?

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386887#msg386887
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2011, 08:44:10 pm »
Because we are brainwashing the developer, Zanz, to not change it.

It's powerful and it's only somewhat unbalanced because of how popular it currently is. Elements seems to go through phases in popular decks. As it does, small changes have usually been made to counteract it and have people find a new popular deck. Give it awhile, maybe during the next update we will see a small balance shift. Something small but has a larger impact.
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Offline n00b

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386894#msg386894
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2011, 09:03:24 pm »
Actually we are brainwashing Zanzarino to not change it for another reason. It's plain and simple: If it was balanced, there would be no more firestalls D:. WE NEED FIRESTALL
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Toge111

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386898#msg386898
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 09:07:09 pm »
It's powerful because shields are the number one response to creature spam. Shields are nullified with 1 :fire cost explosion and no reasonable player packs ten shields on his deck.

Every deck has some weakness. Even if you're playing tried-and-true Quantum Tower / Supernova decks there's Earthquake and Black Hole to drain it away. How do you get in between 0 cost creature and 0 cost Cremation that gives enough  :fire quanta to play several creatures at once. How do you deny that?

Fire element has everything that is needed for winning and has no counters. That's why it's imbalanced.

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386900#msg386900
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 09:12:07 pm »
It's powerful because shields are the number one response to creature spam. Shields are nullified with 1 :fire cost explosion and no reasonable player packs ten shields on his deck.
Actually the main reason that no reasonable player packs ten shields in his deck is it's not worth it to have 5 of two different shield types in one's deck. And if you want a response to Explosion, try Bonewall.
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Offline EvaRia

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386911#msg386911
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 09:38:08 pm »
The thing with fire is not that it is overpowered, but rather that it is "Complete".

By somewhat coincidence it has everything an element really needs to touch through all bases and that is what makes it terrifying and ridiculously good.

Fire's cards cover such a wide range of utility that it makes it incredibly difficult to counter.

While most elements focus on either "Maining (Death for example)" or "Support (Aether)" Fire has access to both.

This card spread makes countering fire extremely difficult.

1. Immolation
This allows fire to gain instant quanta, which increases it's speed by a large margin compared to other elements, while giving it access to other cards with ease.

2. Deflagration
Cheap PC is incredible. While Pulverizer and Butterfly effect are arguably more powerful, 2-1 quanta cost is amazing not because PC on its own is strong, but because shields and weapons are so powerful. Cards like Dimensional Shield, Dusk Mantle, Eagle's Eye, Discord, etc. can win games on their own, which is why Deflagration is such a powerful resource.

3. Rage Potion
Rage potion is an incredibly good form of single target CC. In a similar niche as Lightning, it can seriously shut down the damage from a large amount of decks.

4. Fire Bolt
This is one of the big things that makes fire incredibly powerful. With enough quanta you can use it to kill nearly every creature in the game, and it gives Fire Access to alternative damage. Since one of Fire's bigger weaknesses is how easily its creatures dies, near unavoidable damage circumvents this and makes it difficult to counter.

5. Fahrenheight

Fahrenheight coupled with Fire Bolt means that you can never have too much Fire Quanta. This makes Fire Stall an extremely stable deck because it turns every card into something useful. While in many other decks you can have under or overpillared draws, in a deck designed to simply get as much quanta as possible and survive at the same time makes this very difficult.

6. Phoenix
This is the recent addition that made Fire complete. While before it's creature damage was very unreliable because of how easily they could all be killed, Phoenix remedies this by giving it a near indestructable mid-range attacker. This means that it's biggest weakness is covered and it allows fire to touch all bases

With strong control all over the field, speed, powerful/difficult to kill creatures, alternate damage, Fire is difficult to beat, simply because of a few key cards that let it touch all bases.

But the cards on their own are balanced. It's just the fact that you can access them all so easily that makes it so difficult.

Rather than directly nerfing fire, giving other elements more options will make them be able to compete.

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386912#msg386912
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2011, 09:48:11 pm »
Every deck has some weakness. Even if you're playing tried-and-true Quantum Tower / Supernova decks there's Earthquake and Black Hole to drain it away.
As far as Quanta drain goes... try Sanctuary... :)

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386914#msg386914
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2011, 09:55:20 pm »
The thing with fire is not that it is overpowered, but rather that it is "Complete".

By somewhat coincidence it has everything an element really needs to touch through all bases and that is what makes it terrifying and ridiculously good.

Fire's cards cover such a wide range of utility that it makes it incredibly difficult to counter.

While most elements focus on either "Maining (Death for example)" or "Support (Aether)" Fire has access to both.

This card spread makes countering fire extremely difficult.

1. Immolation
This allows fire to gain instant quanta, which increases it's speed by a large margin compared to other elements, while giving it access to other cards with ease.

2. Deflagration
Cheap PC is incredible. While Pulverizer and Butterfly effect are arguably more powerful, 2-1 quanta cost is amazing not because PC on its own is strong, but because shields and weapons are so powerful. Cards like Dimensional Shield, Dusk Mantle, Eagle's Eye, Discord, etc. can win games on their own, which is why Deflagration is such a powerful resource.

3. Rage Potion
Rage potion is an incredibly good form of single target CC. In a similar niche as Lightning, it can seriously shut down the damage from a large amount of decks.

4. Fire Bolt
This is one of the big things that makes fire incredibly powerful. With enough quanta you can use it to kill nearly every creature in the game, and it gives Fire Access to alternative damage. Since one of Fire's bigger weaknesses is how easily its creatures dies, near unavoidable damage circumvents this and makes it difficult to counter.

5. Fahrenheight

Fahrenheight coupled with Fire Bolt means that you can never have too much Fire Quanta. This makes Fire Stall an extremely stable deck because it turns every card into something useful. While in many other decks you can have under or overpillared draws, in a deck designed to simply get as much quanta as possible and survive at the same time makes this very difficult.

6. Phoenix
This is the recent addition that made Fire complete. While before it's creature damage was very unreliable because of how easily they could all be killed, Phoenix remedies this by giving it a near indestructable mid-range attacker. This means that it's biggest weakness is covered and it allows fire to touch all bases

With strong control all over the field, speed, powerful/difficult to kill creatures, alternate damage, Fire is difficult to beat, simply because of a few key cards that let it touch all bases.

But the cards on their own are balanced. It's just the fact that you can access them all so easily that makes it so difficult.

Rather than directly nerfing fire, giving other elements more options will make them be able to compete.
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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg386995#msg386995
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2011, 03:48:56 am »
It's powerful because shields are the number one response to creature spam. Shields are nullified with 1 :fire cost explosion and no reasonable player packs ten shields on his deck.
Actually the main reason that no reasonable player packs ten shields in his deck is it's not worth it to have 5 of two different shield types in one's deck. And if you want a response to Explosion, try Bonewall.
You could also try Emerald Shield, Mirror Shield, Hope, or Protect Artifact. But they really only have one use. If they can't deflag your shield, they might just go for your pillars.


Fire is too powerful at the moment, and anything for more variety is a good move.

adrix89

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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387025#msg387025
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2011, 06:29:11 am »
There is also the prevailing mentality that decks should not be balanced, which is stupid in the case of mono decks as they should be balanced.

Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387232#msg387232
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2011, 03:39:47 pm »
Even seeing the current arena screen, I don't think, that fire needs to be nerfed, since the skills do play quite a big role in those decks being nigh unstoppable.

Simply buffing everything else, would probably end in every element being able to do everything, thus being the same. So maybe a return to a weakness for the fire element might be the better choice. As for me personally, I would wait for the new shards and their influence on the metagame, and if fire still seems to be the romperstomper element, then I'd probably go for some finetuning.


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Re: Why is there no rebalancing being done on Fire decks? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30455.msg387252#msg387252
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2011, 04:45:31 pm »
EvaRia is dead on in this post (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30455.msg413674#msg413674).

Fire in and of itself is not too powerful. Each individual card is balanced. The thing that makes it seem too powerful is that it is, as Eva put it, "Complete." The element itself lacks nothing. With the addition of healing to other elements, Fire can stall using Fahrenheit and Fire Bolt with the sole intent of winning by damage, not by deck out. With cheap Immolation Fuel from other elements, Fire can rush better than most any other rush. With Deflagration, Fire's main worry is PA and Bonewall. With Phoenix, Fire can rely on creature damage that otherwise would be easily removed.

Because of it's wide card base, it can compete on all fronts. Something no other element can do quite as well. Death comes pretty close, but it just isn't quite there. If other elements were "Complete," Fire would no longer seem to be too powerful.
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