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twinsbuster

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why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg87465#msg87465
« on: June 10, 2010, 10:22:54 am »
when you use bolt on creatures, you're suppose to kill it
so what's the point of freezing it? freeze the dead bodies?
also, if you want to freeze creatures, there are congeal

more, the freeze effect do nothing when targeting players
which make ice bolt much weaker than fire bolt and drain bolt

I point out this because water is still a weak stand-alone element


Here's my suggestion:

Deals 2 damage to the target and generate 2 :water for each 10 water quantums in your possession.


it makes sense that ice melt to give you back some water
the change won't give you quantum boost at early but late game thus resonable

welcome to other suggestions and hope that ice bolt will be strengthen

twinsbuster

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg87474#msg87474
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 10:42:37 am »
for the above suggestion
the cost of ice bolt will be rise to 5 :water and 4 :water for ice lance

making it weak at early but strong at late game

Offline teffy

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg87510#msg87510
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 12:08:41 pm »
You could use 2 Ice Bolts to kill 1 threatening creature. If the first bolt freezes it, you don´t need the 2nd. - at the moment.
Or 1 Ice bolt + some other spells/creatures.
Or you want to weaken a creature e.g. Otys, then an Ice bolt can be useful, even if it doesn´t kill the creature
The card suggestion always does 2 damage ? What a weak card. If I have lots of water quantums, I don´t need more of it,



Water has 2 damage /10 quanta + 30% freeze
Darkness 2 damage /10quanta + healing (especially good with devourers on the field.
Fire: one damage point more/10 damage  but no other effect.

I think the -1 damage for Icebolt/Drain Life are justified.

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twinsbuster

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg87521#msg87521
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 12:27:15 pm »
no, the card suggestion not always does 2 damage
I mean 2 damage+2 quantum for each 10 quantum in possession
that mean deal 10 damage and add 10 water if you have 4x quantum in possession

I want to make the spell effect not only for creatures but also player just like the other bolt does

bojengles77

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg87674#msg87674
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2010, 05:24:14 pm »
Say you have 40  :water quanta and you use an ice lance, costing 1  :water . This means you would do 8 damage to a creature or player, while gaining 7 net quanta? That doesn't make much sense to me...

twinsbuster

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg94938#msg94938
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2010, 08:31:11 am »
anyway ice bolt should be remaked

bojengles77

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg95140#msg95140
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2010, 04:56:10 pm »
anyway ice bolt should be remaked
By saying that ice lance has no useful effect, you're saying that congeal is a useless card - which is completly false. Ice lance is fine as it is.

Wynden

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg95615#msg95615
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2010, 02:57:54 am »
It's a fairly powerful card if played properly.

1. It CAN freeze/congeal a creature for 3/4 turns, which can then be attacked with shockwave
2. It does extra damage based on the amount of water quantums
3. With just 12/11 quanta, you can kill or render a lot of creatures useless or dead:
Here is a list I compiled of creatures which are in many decks as key creatures:
[Elite] Otyugh
[Elite] Mummy
[Elite] Shrieker
[Elite] Scarab (maybe)
Vulture/ Condor (maybe)
Lava Golem/Destroyer (maybe)
Mind Flayer/ Ulitharid
Lycanthrope/ Werewolf
Rustler/ Leaf Dragon
Ray of Light
Maxwell's Demon
Fire Spirit/ Spectre
Fallen Elf/ Druid
MAJORITY of nymphs

There are some other creatures which cannot be killed with this little power, but can be killed with the right amount of water quanta.
This is already a good card in its own respect. It can weaken creatures a lot, freeze/congeal them (which sets them up for shockwave or stops them from using their effects), and although may not a staple of every mono water deck, do help it quite a bit.

smuglapse

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg95885#msg95885
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2010, 03:03:51 pm »
I'm an agreement with the OP on this one.

While I don't think all cards should be made equal, Ice Bolt is extremely underpowered compared with the other Bolts available.  If Water was a lot stronger than what it is this could be overlooked, but that is not the case.

Bolts have 2 functions: 1)Target the opponent for direct damage 2)Target a creature for control.

Regarding the first function, Fire Bolt and Drain Life are strictly better than Ice Bolt.  You can argue the relative benefits of healing yourself (Drain) vs. more damage (Fire).  But you CAN'T argue that doing less damage AND not healing yourself is anyway better.

In regards to creature control Ice Bolt fails as well.  If your aim is to freeze creatures put Freeze in your deck.  For Ice Bolt the operative word is "might".  Plus, Water also has Ice Shield and Squid available to it which are renewable freezes.  You don't have to waste deck space putting in a card that "might" freeze or "might" kill based on the target's HP vs. how much  :water you have.  If your aim is to kill creatures then the freezing effect of Ice Bolt is completely unnecessary.  If your opponent manages to bring a large creature out early you will have to use 2 or even 3 Ice Bolts to kill it.  In that case you might be better off taking Freeze plus Shockwave.  The only case where Ice Bolt is going to be better for creature control is when you know your opponent is going to have a lot of 1 or 2HP creatures or they are not going to have any large creatures out until late in the game.  Both of those scenarios are unrealistic.

When designing your deck, in general you are adding a Bolt only for one of the functions.  In the Fire Lance Sudden Killer deck (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html)(just noticed it was created by the OP) any Bolts you use for creature control is going to decrease your chances of winning--that's why it relies on the Phase Shields for protection.  A similar Ice Lance based deck would take 50% longer to achieve the necessary quanta and would fail.  In a drainer deck your Devourers are bringing in extra quanta allowing the Drain Life to catch up to a similar Fire Bolt in terms of damage. Water has no way to generate additional quanta.  If you have to use a Drain Life early its ok because you are generally going to have other damage dealers(dragons or vampires) and Drain Life is probably the best control you can bring.  Parasites and Liquid Shadow also take the creatures HP into consideration.

If Water becomes buffed enough through other cards then the relative weakness of Ice Bolt won't matter because of the strength of the element as a whole.  But as it is now, why not buff Ice Bolt to make Water that much better?

Offline GG

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg95889#msg95889
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2010, 03:10:00 pm »
I'm sure it's made so that there's a fire bolt counterpart in water element, since fire and water are opposites :P

I'd like it if freezing probability increases, though.
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twinsbuster

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg95896#msg95896
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2010, 03:18:29 pm »
anyway ice bolt should be remaked
By saying that ice lance has no useful effect, you're saying that congeal is a useless card - which is completly false. Ice lance is fine as it is.
Totally different.
I mean ice lance itself is not so useful because there are congeal if you want to freeze creatures.
You can argue there are two functions, but if you seek for damage, which is the main reason you choose for the bolts, the freezing effect make no difference.

That's my point.

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: why ice bolt much weaker than the other 2 bolts? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7805.msg96040#msg96040
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2010, 06:12:44 pm »
The freezing effect of Ice Bolt changed the results of several games I played. Its clear its useful.

My opinion: no changes needed.

 

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