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Kuross

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg203874#msg203874
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2010, 05:19:07 pm »
IF a change in cost to upgrade towers to 1000 a pop gets implemented, I would like it so the community knows about the change ahead of time. That way I can sell all my upped towers at the 1156 then when the update hits I can rebuy them at 1000 thereby making up the difference. Cuz it would suck for those of us who took the time to upgrade at the higher cost to suddenly have it cheaper after we've gone through all the trouble.
How would that suck? You'd still have all your towers. Collecting cards is not a competition.
Anyone who wasnt around during Sundial era could say the same, how its much harder now to grind cards than it was before.
I don't think of collecting as a competition. I worked hard to get what I have and I never complained about it. Sure, it would be nice to have upgrading cheaper and when I was collecting upped it would have been then. But I managed to get upped cards just like you and anyone else can do the same. I say it would suck because we took the time to do the upping at the cost it currently is and just because others don't want to take that time sorta feels like it dimishes the effort we put into it. Maybe I'm off on this, but I can't help but feel that I had no real issue in upgrading at the current level and I like that it's not easy because it does seperate those that take the time from those that don't want to.

Offline Ryli

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg203897#msg203897
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2010, 06:39:56 pm »
I like the idea of the upgrades all costing 1000.

@anyone who wants to complain about their upgrades costing more. All games need to change. If you don't feel this way then maybe you want us to go back to the very original set of cards,no forum, removal of gods etc? I doubt you'd be happy about that.

Not that I'm saying you can't counter this proposal, just don't use that argument.

Demut

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg203937#msg203937
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2010, 08:01:17 pm »
Beyond the fact that unless you enjoyed grinding, then your argument Kuross amounts to making others suffer because you had to. There is another aspect to consider.

The reason MMORPGs tend to make the leveling process faster as time goes on is because they are constantly adding stuff. When they first start out, there may be ten skills to grind, each taking a few months to master, ten years later there are a hundred.  If they kept the leveling speed the same as in the beginning, then just moderately experiencing everything could take a lifetime of monotony to achieve. And that is bad.

Rather speed things up and people can still experience everything in a decent amount of time.

Same thing here, as more cards are created, that is more time needed to obtain a fully upgraded deck. And so. more time spent in monotony and more misery. Speeding things up allows new players to attain full upgrading in a decent time frame.

Otherwise what you get is a total drying of fresh blood. Since this is basically an MMORPG mechanic.

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg204005#msg204005
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2010, 09:34:30 pm »
I still don't see what the problem is.

If you're FG grinding to get upped cards anyways, like I'm sure the larger amount of people do, then reducing the cost to upgrade cards to 1000 will NOT make grinding for upped cards easier.

The amount of money from selling the cards you win from FGs will also decrease, meaning that FG grinding will be more or less the same.

All reducing the upgrade cost to 1000 will do is make it feasible to get an upped deckk without having to sell upped cards, which is a good thing.

Offline Time_lord_victorius

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg204152#msg204152
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2010, 12:12:58 am »
i personnally think that lowering the cost of tower upgrades could only be beneficial to the game in general. as it has been already said, it would reduce the time of FG farming (for those able). also, it can increase one's win rate incredibly because some games can be determined by the starting hand alone and i can say such a thing for having experienced it myself...a lot. it could only make this game more fun and practical and less of a chore for the laziest of us (i stand as proof :  :P)
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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205161#msg205161
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2010, 01:18:32 pm »
I don't think of collecting as a competition. I worked hard to get what I have and I never complained about it. Sure, it would be nice to have upgrading cheaper and when I was collecting upped it would have been then. But I managed to get upped cards just like you and anyone else can do the same. I say it would suck because we took the time to do the upping at the cost it currently is and just because others don't want to take that time sorta feels like it dimishes the effort we put into it. Maybe I'm off on this, but I can't help but feel that I had no real issue in upgrading at the current level and I like that it's not easy because it does seperate those that take the time from those that don't want to.
It is not about you.  It  is about making the game more tolerable.

Right now, the grind is heavy.  It is very heavy. 

It will still be heavy with pillars costing 1K. 

What exactly is your contention?

Kuross

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205294#msg205294
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2010, 04:35:29 pm »
I chose not to immediately respond to this any more because I don't want to flame or be flamed. I probably was a bit too flamboyant when I originally tried to make my point and I apologize if that was the case. So let me try to make my point as objective as possible and just hear me out.

I've played many games in my life and count myself as a solid gamer. In that time I've noted observations that crop up when playing certain games, games that tend to do really well. What I've noticed is that in every game I've ever played there is a certain "barrier" to achievement prominent in the good ones that is lacking in the bad ones. That barrier can range from time to skill to intellect to any combination thereof or possibly others not readily seen. For instance, one of the best games I've ever had the opportunity to play was NWN online. The game itself never had the following WoW has, but it did see a lot of play back in the day. But to excel at the game one had to be very good at two specific things- skill in building a character and skill in playing it. You'd be surprised at how different the two could be and not many could do both well. The barriers in NWN were simple- a deep understanding of the game mechanics to build a character well and the ability to think very quickly and react accordingly. If one lacked in either they were doomed as a character. Another game with a large barrier, though it is not as pronounced, counterstrike source. Anyone can point and shoot, but to do so accurately and quickly is a very difficult skill, one that can be learned, but even then not mastered. The point is these games, and I argue any that people truly find amazing, tend to have these inherent barriers in game that make the game worth playing.

As an example to the contrary, I used to play Warhammer Online a lot. Played it from the get go and then for some time after. What I noticed there was Mythic (the company that made and ran the game) tried so hard to balance the game that they inadvertently imbalanced it. It was made so, in my opinion, that any 12yr old finger ninja could play the game proficiently and it simply came down to a numbers game, which inevitably meant most everyone wanted to be a good guy and thus those people playing bad guys were always outnumbered and summarily dead a lot.

Here in Elements, the game has one barrier to excellence- grinding for upped cards. It's what keeps players involved in addition to an excellent community full of fun events. But the grind is what players, all players, have to work through to gain a certain level of success in the game. If that level gets dropped, the barrier that keeps those 12yr old finger ninjas separated from those that are willing to take the time to push on to the end, as is, will blur. And it will continue to blur as the level continues to drop. What happens in a few months when new players come and the old ones that pushed for this change leave and those new players say "grinding for cards sucks, let's lower the cost to something more reasonable" thereby further diminishing the barrier to a point that it becomes nonexistent. The precedent in lowering the cost now after the game has been out for a 1.5 years without issue concerns me for those reasons.

As to effects of making game changes that profit the game, I am in total agreement. I have long been an ardent supporter of getting new cards in game so as to increase the deck building meta game and increase the amount of tournaments and general fun to be had. I am not opposed to changes in game, but I am one of those guys that looks at every change with a magnifying glass to the best of my ability to try and ensure those changes don't inadvertently apply a negative effect to the game. I'd rather question and be wrong than not question at all and wish I could have been right. If the change comes about after lengthy discussion and review, I'll support it.

And for the record, this has nothing to do with me personally. I am not supporting or denying this change as a result of my direct personal beliefs, though I can see where people might see that. I am against it at the outset because I feel it will harm the game's integrity by diminishing a distinct and prominent barrier of the game. That barrier is what makes this game worth playing to the very end. If those barriers were lowered such that anyone could just log in one day and a month later have all the upped cards with little to no trouble, what would be the point of grinding? Yes, we all hate grinding, but it's the grind that makes those who have feel a certain sense of accomplishment. When people in chat go "I have X cards upped!" that's a badge of accomplishment they get to wear proudly because they've earned it. It's the pride and effort those people have put in the game and the grind that makes Elements a fantastic game, though I doubt many will agree with me at the moment.

Long story short, I am not trying to be vindictive or elitist when I say I don't agree that lowering costs on upgrading is a bad thing. I say it because ultimately it's the one barrier that keeps this game strong, though that is not readily seeable. And yes, I am aware that the suggestion is only to lower costs on pillars, but as I noted above, pillars have their own unique, subtle power in the game in that they can dramatically speed up the play of a deck. What I am most concerned of here is that it will set a precedent that others in the future will use to justify further cost reductions and I believe that IF any cost reduction does occur, it's done so with meticulous scrutiny so as to not upset the balance and barriers of the game. And as I said at the outset, it is not my intention to flame or be flamed, only state a concern and try to point out potentially harmful effects such changes may bring about. I love playing this game and I think the community is great. I just hope you all see that the argument I bring about is one of constructive criticism and not just some random naysayer.


Peace.

Malduk

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205315#msg205315
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2010, 05:04:42 pm »
A simple response to all that text: barrier between good and bad player is not the number of upgraded cards. In addition, suggested change would lower the total amount of grind by a really small margin.

Offline ArtCrusade

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205317#msg205317
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2010, 05:06:45 pm »
I totally agree with Kuross here. There was a time that I thought different, but lets face the truth: easy success is boring on the long run and we all want to have the most fun for the longest time, or not? So lets just drop the discussion about changing upgrade costs and move on to more important things, for Fractal needs a change.

You are wrong, Malduk. Paying only 2/3 of the original cost lowers the total amount of grinding a lot.
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Demut

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205343#msg205343
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2010, 05:33:41 pm »
Grind is the absolute worst form of barrier. So much that it detracts from the game rather then adds to it. Barriers are important, something to separate the good from the bad, but grind should never be accepted as the barrier.

First off it doesn't test any important quality beyond obsession.  Second it detracts from a player's skill as a good grind deck is generally different then a good PvP deck and ends up requiring different skills. And since grinding takes so long, one's skill at PvP drops. And thirdly it is just bad game design.

Barriers should always be based on ability and skill. Something like PvP rankings. Those trophies for instance are a barrier. Just getting a trophy is proof of one's ability and thus there is a barrier, though it also could just prove one's luck.

I feel that removing the grind will improve the integrity which is diminished by this artificial barrier, known as grind, which is nothing more then padding.

Malduk

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Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg205378#msg205378
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2010, 06:11:31 pm »
You are wrong, Malduk. Paying only 2/3 of the original cost lowers the total amount of grinding a lot.
This suggestion is only for Towers, not every card. I feel like I've been playing this game since forever and I still dont have ALL upgrades, and very few people do. I dont really recall any other game that required this amount of grind to "unlock content". And... grinding here has nothing to do with skill. FGs are a ceiling, and they become repetitive pretty soon.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with reducing the amount of grind. I've showed this game to one of my friends a month ago, and first response I got was "you played over 9000 games and still have to grind?" Funny thing is... for a long while now, I've been playing exclusively FGs and PvP duels. First ones are card farms, second ones are not recorded at all.
Anyway, point is, I dont see this as a good thing. Besides, PvP IS the endgame, not "look how long I can click mindlessly AI3 to get super extra score", or "look how long I can grind those FGs for my cards". Sadly, PvP is centered about unupgraded cards for the very reason that percentage of upgraded cards in the community is stupidly low.

Personally, I can afford to play whatever upgraded deck I want. It would be nice if more people would be able to, so we dont always see same old same old upgraded decks in PvP, or just drop the idea of upgraded PvP and go for unupgraded events.

Re: Tower Upgrades need to cost at $1,000 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=15818.msg212772#msg212772
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2010, 08:45:54 pm »
This game is nothing but a grind.  While I understand the mechanics behind a grind, it is still a grind.

Lowering pillar costs to a 1,000 would greatly increase the utility of this game while lowering the cost (I realize their no cost. I am only adding a suggestion to make this game better).

This game would be much better with the lower tower cost.  It would make it more accessible to people.

This is coming from a grinder.


 

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