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Offline ralouf

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg396259#msg396259
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2011, 07:05:24 pm »
I didn't read all this wall of text and I will do it later but I'm currently in BL ad never faced a firestall, and lost only one game vs a graboid rush (rainbow style). Myself I used firestall in a few games (5/6) and sometimes graboids with some modds but most of my wins came with other deck which are not even listed here. So orinality can live and get success ! (I'm first atm)
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg396354#msg396354
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2011, 09:38:37 pm »
Great example of one of Earth's evasion deficiencies kirchj33. The shield Wing defends against all non flying melee. Earth's only current evasion to this defense is the Dragon but that is not adequate. Earth would benefit from a new card that Removed, Disabled, Negated or Mitigated Wings. However Airborne and PC are too easy of answers to this puzzle.

Cards like
"Mountain, Permanent, Tunnels: Burrowed creatures ignore shields" [Idea borrowed],
"Meteor, Spell, Deal 10 damage to target" [Idea borrowed] or
"Dwarven Something, Creature, Stubborn: Dwarven Something gains +2|+1 every turn it fails to damage the opponent."
would work.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg396387#msg396387
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2011, 10:49:36 pm »
@kirch
The firestall/grabbow combo can be beaten every single time with the same deck. TStar and I both crafted similar versions of this deck, and that's why we we're the top BL players. Any two BL decks can be countered with one deck, and this is why BL is a game of deckbuilding skill and prediction. I really can't imagine CL could be the same. DBHbow can almost always win with the right draw and Firestall can probably beat everything that usually beats DBHbow. But I'll need to spend time in CL to see which us more balanced.
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Offline RootRanger

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg398810#msg398810
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2011, 11:54:59 pm »
I've updated this post a lot here. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg421746#msg421746)

It has great explanations for why certain cards are overpowered.
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg398933#msg398933
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2011, 05:30:16 am »
Thank you RootRanger for contributing to the thread. I have added most of your comments to the OP (except the Deflagration one as there are a lot of similar comments upon it).

I think it is time to start analyzing the upped environment too.
DBHbow can almost always win with the right draw and Firestall can probably beat everything that usually beats DBHbow. But I'll need to spend time in CL to see which us more balanced.
If this is true, then there might be some measure of balancing there too.
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg399001#msg399001
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2011, 10:18:02 am »
Mostly I just play upped games, but looking at unupped, and the environment in general, I'll throw in my two cents.  I've been playing elements since March and CCGs before half of you were born ;) I haven't played many pvp events here yet, but I do know what I'm talking about.  (so my ego tells me anyway...)

Anyway...

Fire cards specifically:

Deflagration: This card is too cheap.  People have discussed it already in this thread, but it's one of Fire's strongest cards.  Rootranger had it right with his posts on this card.  One thing he didn't mention, though (that I saw) is that Deflagration is so cheap that you can splash it in other decks.  I don't know if this makes the problem bigger or smaller, but it's a fact.  I've made decks that were mono-whatever but splashed deflags and used fire mark.  You can't do that with Steal very easily.  You can't do that very easily even with Improved Steal in pvp, and you can't do that at all with other permanent removal.

Immolation: This is obviously a good card, even though it's card disadvantage.  Photons and sparks are available as fodder for it even in unupped, and upped gives a couple more options.  One suggestion I made in another thread was to limit this card so that either 1) you have to sacrifice a fire creature, or 2) the base cost of immolation is 1 :fire, and then it provides 1 :fire more, so that it has the same net gain. (or 3: both)  Either option would slow down the all-too-familar photon-immo-lava golem or whatever, by making it more difficult to play it on turn 1.  It could still be done with upped quanta sources or novas, but I think that would be acceptable.

Phoenix: This card, again, rootranger made good points.  It has one of the highest quanta:attack ratios in the game, and is one of the hardest creatures to kill.  (and Minor Phoenix has an even BETTER ratio)  Increasing the rebirth cost and/or decreasing the attack would be the best options on both versions of this card.

Lava Golem: This card has the same quanta:attack ratio as Phoenix, only instead of being hard to kill, it's pumpable.  Most of the same arguments as phoenix apply to this card, only the golem is easier to kill in the first few turns, so it's not quite as overpowered, but it's still extremely strong.

I don't have any issue with the rest of fire's cards.  There's some powerful ones, but they are strongest against the underpowered elements, and are fairly reasonable against better elements.

Specific Elements:

Light: I think light is probably the weakest element.  I think it was pointed out, but unupped light doesn't have a good early game or midrange attacker like other elements do.  (upped it has archangel for midrange)  Pegasus is alright, but it requires air quanta to be any good, and uses it every turn.  (unlike graboid evolve; see below)  It also has no permanent removal and no creature removal other than holy light, which is rather narrow.  I don't see light as able to do anything well other than stall.

Earth: Earth is a decent element, probably somewhere in the middle of the pack for power.  One thing that has always baffled me about earth, though, is how graboid/shrieker have the same attack value as earth's dragon, yet are cheaper.  This makes the earth dragons pretty much useless.  I think that the shrieker should have a lower attack than it does, maybe 6, and 8 upped?  It would still be a pretty decent card, but it wouldn't dominate, and it would encourage the use of the dragon in earth.  That might require reducing shrieker's cost by 1, though.  Another option might be to increase the evolve cost to 2 :time.  That would slow down the early graboid rush a bit, but I don't think it would change things enough.  I'd prefer to see the attack of shrieker lowered as I mentioned, and leave the evolve alone, but it is another option.

Life: On paper, Life seems like it should be really strong.  It has a lot of efficient creatures.  However, it suffers from many of the same problems as Light, only not as bad as Light.  Life has creature removal in the form of spine carapace, but it's quite slow, and expensive to play.  It also doesn't really have a midrange attacker, although its weenies like Cockatrice, and in upped play, Horned Frog, are nearly as big as other element's midrange creatures.  It has more utility than Light, with things like Mitosis or Adrenaline there, and with the exception of Miracle, can heal better than light.  It also gets a pumpable creature in Forest Spirit.  Life is better than Light across the board... and Life is still underpowered.  Poor Light.

Probably nobody will read this far, so I won't add any more, although I could pretty easily do so.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg399045#msg399045
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2011, 12:23:37 pm »
*snip*
It seems like you share most of the problems mentioned in the OP, and have added some of your own. However, most if not all the things you mention are already in the OP. You also started listing a few solutions to the problems you see. Can you please try to expand upon it in order to match the rules I stated here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,30797.msg418180#msg418180), so that I can add your view and solution there too? :)
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg399056#msg399056
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2011, 01:12:50 pm »
Okay, I'll see what I can do.  I'll try to use some more concrete examples.

First of all, in the unupped environment, the attack:quanta ratio creatures in each element: (higher ratio is more bang for your buck, when defined this way)

The Twelve Elements:AETHER (highest = Phase Spider at 1.33)Spark: infinite
Immortal: 0.67
Phase Dragon: 0.62
Phase Spider: 1.33AIR(highest is Dragonfly/Firefly at 1.0)Dragonfly: 1.0
Wyrm: 0.75
Azure Dragon: 0.9
Firefly Queen: 0.43
Firefly: 1.0DARKNESS(highest is Black Dragon/Gargoyle at 1.0)Black Dragon: 1.0
Devourer: 0
Parasite: 0.5
Minor Vampire: 0.67
Gargoyle: 1.0
Voodoo Doll: 0DEATH:(highest is Mummy at 1.25)Bone Dragon: 1.0
Virus: 1.0
Flesh Spider: 1.0
Vulture: 0
Skeleton: 1.0
Mummy: 1.25
Deathstalker: 0EARTH:(highest are Antlion/Hematite Golem/Gnome Rider/Shrieker at 1.0)
Antlion: 1.0
Hematite Golem: 1.0
Stone Dragon: 0.8
Gnome Rider: 1.0
Graboid: 0.67 (N.B: counting the evolve, an evolved graboid would be 8/4=2.0; note how much higher this is)
Shrieker: 1.0
Iridium Warden:0ENTROPY:(highest is Abomination/Purple Dragon/Schrodinger's Cat at 1.0)
Maxwell's Demon: 0.6
Abomination: 1.0
Purple Dragon: 1.0
Lycanthrope: 0.5 (counting the 2 darkness for lycanthropy, it is 6/4=1.5)
Fallen Elf: 0.75
Schrodinger's Cat: 1.0FIRE: (highest is Ash Eater at 2.0)
Ash Eater: 2.0
Crimson Dragon: 1.2
Fire Spirit: 0
Lava Golem: 1.0
Phoenix: 1.0GRAVITY: (Highest is Sapphire Charger at 0.8 ) Sapphire Charger: 0.8
Armagio: 0.2
Graviton Mercenary: 0.75
Colossal Dragon: 0.7
Otyugh: 0
Graviton Fire Eater: 0
Chimera: undefined/variableLIFE: (Highest is Horned Frog at 1.5)Emerald Dragon: 1.0
Horned Frog: 1.5
Rustler: 1.0
Cockatrice: 1.33
Forest Spirit: 0.5
Forest Scorpion: 0.33LIGHT:(Highest is Golden Dragon at 0.83)Photon: infinite
Golden Dragon: 0.83
Pegasus: 0.75
Guardian Angel: 0.33
Crusader: 0.4TIME: (Highest is Ghost of the Past at 1.17)Deja Vu: 1.0 (both before and after ability)
Fate Egg: undefined
Devonian Dragon: 1.0
Anubis: 0.625
Scarab: 1.0
Pharaoh: 0.33
Dune Scorpion: 0
Ghost of the Past: 1.17WATER: (Highest is Toadfish at 1.2)Chrysaora: 0
Blue Crawler: 1.0
Arctic Squid: 0.33
Ice Dragon: 0.9
Toadfish: 1.2
Mind Flayer: 1.0
Steam Machine: 0Summary:AETHER: 1.33
AIR: 1.0
DARKNESS: 1.0
DEATH: 1.25
EARTH: 1.0
ENTROPY: 1.0
FIRE: 2.0
GRAVITY: 0.8
LIFE: 1.5
LIGHT: 0.83
TIME: 1.17
WATER: 1.2

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg399089#msg399089
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2011, 02:41:14 pm »
So what do the numbers above mean: Well, it means that if you want an unupped rush deck, Fire and Life are the best way to go.  Even discounting the Ash Eater that is skewing Fire's highest number, EVERY SINGLE ONE of Fire's creatures have 1.0 or higher for A:Q ratio.  (except fire spirit, and that grows)  That means the LEAST efficient fire creature is MORE efficient than the MOST efficient gravity or light creature, and is equal to the best in air, darkness, earth, and entropy.  (though graboids evolving in earth mean they are actually better than the A:Q ratio allows for)

(feel free to use those numbers in the previous post for anything you want later on: I probably will refer to it a lot)

Looking at Fire's creatures in more detail:
Ash Eater: This is theoretically the most efficient nonzero creature in the game.  However, since it's so small, I think it's fair.
Crimson Dragon: At 1.2, this is the most efficient dragon.  However, with its fragile hp, I think it is a balanced card.  It can be killed in a lot of ways that don't apply to most other dragons.
Fire Spirit: This is the weakest grow/ablaze creature, but it is also the only one that can be used in a monodeck.  It might see a lot more play if it weren't for Lava Golem.
Lava Golem: Not only is this an efficient creature at 1.0, but it has the growth ability.  That makes it an extremely strong creature, indeed.
Phoenix: At 1.0, this is also an efficient creature, and with rebirth, it is also an extremely strong creature.
Combine fire's creatures with immolation (the best unupped quanta generator, giving even more quanta than nova), deflagration (the cheapest permanent removal), fahrenheit (the highest damage dealing weapon, if fire quanta >=25) and the most creature removal (though arguably not the most efficient ones; lightning bolt is more efficient than rage potion, for instance) I think it's fairly clear why people think of Fire as overpowered.

So... what are the problems?
Fire gets some of the most efficient creatures, and not only that, its creatures have extremely useful abilities.  Fire also has access to both permanent and creature control, something that only darkness and entropy can also claim in mono.  However, those two elements have much weaker creatures and their permanent removal is more expensive.

Fire also gets more cards that kill creatures.  It gets Fire Bolt, Fire Shield, Rain of Fire, and Rage Potion, all of which are strong cards.  The only elements with comparable amounts of creature control are Entropy and Water.  Entropy's creature control is either situational, (Maxwell's Demon) random (chaos seed, pandemonium) or soft control. (antimatter; allowing healing but also allowing the creature to continue using its ability, if any)  Water gets Freeze and Arctic Squid, and Ice Shield can arguably be put in this category as well.  It also gets Ice Bolt for kill, and Toadfish if Air is used.  Fire gets the most hard creature removal, it gets one of only a few MASS creature removal cards, and the only effective one besides pandemonium, which is both unpredictable and affects your own creatures unupped.

Fire also gets the best quanta accelerator, Immolation, which is the only quanta spell accelerator besides Nova.  The only other unupped nonpillar quanta sources are creatures, most of which are rarely used unupped except for devourer due to their small size.  Fire has the weapon that is capable of dealing the most damage, and it's one of the cheaper weapons to play.

Another point, which is more difficult to quantify, but I would argue is another Fire advantage, is that many of its cards gain a larger advantage from upgrading.  It has several that become 2 :fire cheaper, rather than just 1 like most cards.  (I think Death is the only one that has a comparable number)  I won't go into detailed examples here though, since we are primarily discussing the unupped pvp environment.
Now, let's look at Fire's weaknesses.  (Yes, it does have them :p)-Fire has no healing or damage prevention shields.  This turns out to be not particularly relevant.  Unupped you have access to Luciferin, which all elements can use, and upped you have access to shards and holy flash.  And fire shield will eventually kill most attackers in the long run.
-Fire's creatures have lower hp than any other element.  I haven't worked this out quantitatively, but none of them have more hp than 3 (except the nymph and ash) so I'm pretty sure that if we did an HP:Quanta ratio, fire would have the lowest one.  However, this turns out to be a nonissue against Earth, Light, and Time, because they either have no creature control (light; since holy flash doesn't work vs fire creatures) or have only soft creature control (basilisk blood, reverse time) that doesn't care what hp your creatures have.
-Fire has no soft control.  This means that against creatures with very high hp, it can do almost nothing.  It still has options; fire bolt can potentially become very powerful, and fire shield will eventually kill anything, but cards like colossal dragon are just plain going to be a pain in the ass for fire.  However, most high hp creatures also have crappy attack, so fire can often beat those just by outrushing them and completely ignoring the high hp creatures.
In summary: Fire can do almost everything. The only two other elements that I would argue are also "complete", Darkness and Entropy, have worse creatures and take more quanta to do most of the same things.  It has more efficient attacking creatures than any element except Life, and its creatures have better abilities than most other elements.



Having said all that, however, I'll add a bit of my own opinion.  While fire does have a few cards, as I've already discussed, that are overpowered, if those were nerfed, I still think there would be problems.  The reason is that I think the biggest issue is not that fire is strong, but that certain other elements are weak.  You can take fire down a couple rungs, and it is still going to kick the crap out of light and life, for instance.  Is fire the strongest element?  Maybe.  I'm not sure.  It's definitely one of the strongest, and it might be THE strongest.  It's definitely the easiest to play, which is one key reason why fire dominates top-ranked arena decks; the AI doesn't have as much trouble playing fire optimally.  Fire definitely has counters; I remember one tournament where I beat several monofire decks with a water/fire duo, using fire only for steam machine activations and deflagration.  I took advantage of the 6hp of ice dragon and steam machine; as mentioned above, one of fire's weaknesses is dealing with higher hp creatures.  I haven't played in a lot of tournaments yet, about 6 in 6 months, but I haven't noticed fire dominating those, but I have noticed a few of the other elements are almost never used.  I've discussed primarily the issues with Fire this morning, and there are some legitimate concerns here, as I have so wordily pointed out, but I think the more serious issues lie with the lack of power in some of the other elements.  (which will probably be the topic of my next wall of text, perhaps this evening)

I'm hoping this is more along the lines of the format you were looking for, Mormegil.  If not, feel free to adapt it to your needs.

silux

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg400580#msg400580
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2011, 11:43:22 am »
Note for Dragonsdemesne:
quanta/attack isn't a good model in proving the efficiency of an element.
Fire eater has the best attack/quanta ratio, but they will do 100 damage in 17 turn(30 cards and 6 copies).
They are also unreliable, as a 2 damage reduction or a thunderstorm, denyes all of them.

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg400593#msg400593
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2011, 12:19:50 pm »
I agree that quanta/attack isn't the only factor in proving the efficiency of an element.  It is definitely a factor, though, and is one of the reasons fire is one of the best elements.  Ignoring the fire eater, fire still has a lot of efficient creatures that also have strong abilities.  Deflagration and immolation are also very strong reasons for fire being a good element.  However, I still think that one of the reasons the community in general thinks fire is so strong is because it is one of the elements that takes the least skill to play.  It definitely has the best element power:player skill ratio, if such a thing can even be defined :p  Life is probably the only element that requires less deckbuilding skill than fire, but life is not as powerful as fire.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: The Metagame: a multi-purpose community project https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30797.msg401549#msg401549
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2011, 10:48:48 am »
It appears that with 1.29 some issues (the most pressing ones) will be addressed. I think we'll need some time to evaluate the changes in the metagame after this patch, both due to shards and to the card changes. :D
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