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CMBurns

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg332014#msg332014
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2011, 05:09:31 am »
I'm trying to understand where people are coming from with their "no", but I can't.

Let's take a simple example.

I have an upgraded Miracle that I don't need and want to get rid of. Instead of selling it in the bazaar, I can sell it for more electrum to a user who needs it. I still had to roll the miracle to begin with and the user still had to farm his gold.

Cards won't be "less" rare. The roll frequency doesn't change, you still have to roll the cards. But it lets someone spend electrum to avoid having to roll when he needs the card immediately.

Also it's not like it would be hard to fix any abuse such as making multiple accounts to get quick quest reward electrum. Simply make quest electrum unusable in trades/transfers.

I'm not for card auctions. That's easily abusable. But card TRADING however should be welcomed. If I have 4 firefly queens that someone needs and he has an SoG that I need, why can't we just trade? Hell, why can't I just give him 1500+ electrum for it?
1) Quest money cannot be tagged. If it could then it can be laundered easily in the bazaar.
2) Rare weapons would be cheap and common through the Rare Weapon quest.
3) All other Rare cards would be cheap and common through the oracle.
4) The bazaar would be useless because this "trading" is strictly cheaper.
So under your specific example the bazaar is the useless system and the trading is broken
This does not even mention the burden caused by the thousands or more dummy accounts made to break the system.
5) It looks like an infinite money scheme can be created by trading All of a starting deck for a Pillar.
Ah those are pretty good examples.

Tho, I don't see how most of them can't be fixed. Tagging quest gold no matter what you do with it along with your starting cards is codable.

Also bazaar still has its use to buy existing cards or selling low cards that nobody wants or for which you'd not want to engage in a trade.

I'm not trying to backtrack everything you're saying. I get where you're all coming from, but you can't deny that by fixing the issues, having a trade system would be amazing.

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg332018#msg332018
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2011, 05:14:45 am »
I'm trying to understand where people are coming from with their "no", but I can't.

Let's take a simple example.

I have an upgraded Miracle that I don't need and want to get rid of. Instead of selling it in the bazaar, I can sell it for more electrum to a user who needs it. I still had to roll the miracle to begin with and the user still had to farm his gold.

Cards won't be "less" rare. The roll frequency doesn't change, you still have to roll the cards. But it lets someone spend electrum to avoid having to roll when he needs the card immediately.

Also it's not like it would be hard to fix any abuse such as making multiple accounts to get quick quest reward electrum. Simply make quest electrum unusable in trades/transfers.

I'm not for card auctions. That's easily abusable. But card TRADING however should be welcomed. If I have 4 firefly queens that someone needs and he has an SoG that I need, why can't we just trade? Hell, why can't I just give him 1500+ electrum for it?
1) Quest money cannot be tagged. If it could then it can be laundered easily in the bazaar.
2) Rare weapons would be cheap and common through the Rare Weapon quest.
3) All other Rare cards would be cheap and common through the oracle.
4) The bazaar would be useless because this "trading" is strictly cheaper.
So under your specific example the bazaar is the useless system and the trading is broken
This does not even mention the burden caused by the thousands or more dummy accounts made to break the system.
5) It looks like an infinite money scheme can be created by trading All of a starting deck for a Pillar.
Ah those are pretty good examples.

Tho, I don't see how most of them can't be fixed. Tagging quest gold no matter what you do with it along with your starting cards is codable.

Also bazaar still has its use to buy existing cards or selling low cards that nobody wants or for which you'd not want to engage in a trade.

I'm not trying to backtrack everything you're saying. I get where you're all coming from, but you can't deny that by fixing the issues, having a trade system would be amazing.
A trade system is useful when a store does not exist (see booster pack type games). In ETG a store exists and the cards that are not available from the store are rare for a reason (but not for balance reasons). They are rare because it lengthens the game for the collectors allowing the game to appeal longer to a wider range of players.
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Kael Hate

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg332071#msg332071
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2011, 07:25:11 am »
If it hasn't been mentioned before,

Zanzarino the Owner and sole developer of the game has said NO to trading
and when has talked publically about interplayer card exchange auction etc was not interested in developing it.

So if you want to push the idea further you'll have to come up with a lot more evidence and reasoning for him to make it both worth his time and his interest to carry it further.

The Game is designed so that you the player have to work to get the cards. Zanz has even said that he doesn't like the Farm aspect that it is being used to outsource rare cards atm and is working on a new T50 system that will promote reward for effort rather than free cards.


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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg332399#msg332399
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2011, 09:12:35 pm »
At first, I was hoping for a type of trading system, but the more I played, the more I realized how unnecessary it is.  I am a collector as much as I am a player, and it would be much too easy to get the 'rare' cards with a trading system in place.

Also, there is no real benefit because of the Bazaar.  Certain cards are not available in the Bazaar for a reason.  Probably so new players cannot just go straight to building a quick farming deck right off the bat since most of them include rares (ex. Fahrenheit).

Finally, I know Nymphs are very rare and although not everyone would agree with me, I find that certain satisfaction when you get lucky and the Oracle gives you one.

It took me a while to realize, but Kael Hate said it best "The Game is designed so that you the player have to work to get the cards."

Ashebrethafe

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg333659#msg333659
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2011, 08:23:10 pm »
As I said in the "5 things Elements needs" thread, my own vote for trading was a vote for something closer to auctions, but it's not really auctions I want either. Trading and auctions fill the same niche -- if I received a Purple Nymph as AshebrethafeG, either system would allow me to get what I thought was a fair exchange for it, instead of being forced to choose between accepting 909 :electrum (because I have no expectation that the bazaar will be willing to pay more at a later date) or buying other cards in order to add the nymph to my mono-gravity deck.

If the problem is that the trade system would either be useless or make the bazaar useless, then why couldn't the bazaar itself serve this purpose? The current price of each card is 6 (buy) or 4 (sell) times a rank assigned by Zanzarino, plus the number of quanta the card costs to play. I want the price to change in response to copies of the card being bought and sold.

Since we have card usage statistics, I assume that we could also have card acquisition and disposal statistics; then the price of those cards for which acquisition minus disposal was highest could increase, and the price of those for which it was lowest could decrease. Under this system, AshebrethafeG could keep the Purple Nymph until there were enough Purple Nymphs in players' collections that the bazaar was offering what I think one is worth. (It wouldn't make nymphs grindable, either -- I still wouldn't have any way to give the nymph to AshebrethafeN, who has a mono-entropy deck.)

So, how could this system be exploited?

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg334296#msg334296
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2011, 08:21:03 pm »
not necessarily exploited. see OldTrees post on the first page.
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Ashebrethafe

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg334611#msg334611
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2011, 05:08:34 am »
Reply #5? That's what I thought I was responding to already. OldTrees explained why having two ways to buy cards (a trading system and the bazaar) wouldn't work -- so I suggested modifying the bazaar (by having it adjust prices based on demand), rather than adding a second system.
(Yellow text shows my interpretation)
Trading for Common cards:
Either it costs less, the same or more than the bazaar.
Less: You can make Infinite :electrum by repeatedly trading X electrum for a card the bazaar will pay Y electrum for, where X<Y
Same: Waste of Code since you can trade with the bazaar
More: Waste of :electrum since the bazaar sells the card for less
...which is why I'm suggesting a modification of the bazaar, rather than an alternative. Zanz has adjusted card prices before, on both a large scale (changing the rank of a card) and a small scale (changing the quantum cost of the card). For example, a rank-3 card with a quantum cost of 2 can be bought for 56 and sold for 38; changing it to rank 2, cost 2 would reduce these prices to 26 buy/18 sell, while making it rank 3, cost 4 would increase them to 58 buy/40 sell.

I'm saying that the bazaar should periodically load card acquisition and sale statistics from a database (possibly the same database that collects the card usage statistics), which it would use to adjust the price of each card (and then reset that part of the database, so that it doesn't make the same changes again unless similar deficits and surpluses occur at the new prices.) The "buy at the trading post, sell at the bazaar" loophole doesn't exist if the bazaar is the trading post.
Quote
Trading for Rare cards: [Rare cards exist for a reason.]
If Nymphs can be traded for then they would not be rare due to the oracle spin.
If Weapons can be traded for then they would not be rare due to the 500 score reward.
Arctic Squid, Pharaoh, Miracle and Shards would still be scarce but much less rare even considering the Farms in T50 that currently exist.
I'm not saying there should be any new way to acquire rares -- in fact, my previous post even says my idea "wouldn't make nymphs grindable." Actually, it would probably make rares even rarer -- a high number of copies of a rare being acquired (and not sold) would lead to a higher sell price for that rare, which would lead to more copies being sold. (Exception: Relics would become more common, as not everyone would sell them immediately. Those who waited until Relics were more common would get more electrum for their Relic.)
Quote
Conclusion: Trading either is exploitable in a terrible way or is useless.
The only exploit I can see is creating many alt accounts with cards you want to sell on your main account, so that the main can get more electrum from selling those cards -- but I think this could be deterred by not gathering stats from low-score players. At the moment an account crossed the score threshold (100?), all the cards in that account would be considered to have just been acquired. (It would still be possible, but not as efficient -- and nobody will do it if it's less efficient than simply grinding on the main account!)
Quote
[Exception: An almost worthless version of trading would only accept Arctic Squid, Pharaoh, Miracle and Shards and cost dearly to buy. But if that was beneficial to the game then those cards could be added at that price to the bazaar.]
If making them buyable would be beneficial, then it can be done. The prices are already listed in the trainer: Squid and Pharaoh are rank 8, so they cost 384  :electrum (and sell for 256) plus their quantum cost; Miracle is rank 6 with a cost of 15 quanta, so it costs 231 (and sells for 159); and (unupped) shards are rank 1 with a cost of 1 quantum, so they cost 7 (and sell for 5). Under my system, if they stayed at these prices, it would be because the players thought they were worth that much -- or at least, worth somewhere between the buy and sell prices.

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Re: Suggestion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=25239.msg334615#msg334615
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2011, 05:26:36 am »
Reply #5? That's what I thought I was responding to already. OldTrees explained why having two ways to buy cards (a trading system and the bazaar) wouldn't work -- so I suggested modifying the bazaar (by having it adjust prices based on demand), rather than adding a second system.
Modifying the Bazaar in not trading and has different problems to recognize or address.
However Modifying the Bazaar is not necessarily a bad idea.
1) Zanz would have to code an maintain it. (the benefit must be worth his time. Is it?)
2) Coordinated Hoarding and Selling. Everyone sells on the first day of the month gaining from temporarily inflated prices?
3) Prices are no longer constant so guides that rely on prices will have problems.
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