Starter Pack

[ninjamaster1991]

I like the previous idea stated of having teh starter pack cards have a symbol or sumthing to set tem apart frum farmed cards.

[TStar]

you just don't want to go through the process of building up your card base like everyone else and just skip right to the end-game of playing for prizes.

What's wrong with that? (regardless of whether a player "really" has time to grind or not)

Just because we live in a society that wants immediate gratification doesn't mean we need to cater to everyone's desires to not put in the hard work.  I want 6 of each upgraded card, does that mean Zanz should put packs in the game to allow me to get more upgraded cards faster and easier?  I want more Nymphs so should Zanz make spins easier so I can win every week?  As it stands, farming for unupped cards is by far the easiest thing to do in Elements.  Buying the cards are cheap.  There are very affordable unupped decks that can farm T50 for rares, and you even have a forum where you can request specific rare farms and players will basically give you free rares if you run into them.  The amount of actual time and effort required to acquire a functional set of unupped cards and a workable amount of rares is fairly low.  Making things easy for people to get the stuff that is already the easiest to get in the game is just setting up for the next set of "We need easier ways to get Rares/Ups/Nymphs/Whatever because I don't have time to farm for it".  You just create a new level where people will complain that it's not fair to the casual player while simply enabling them to try to take part in the "fun" events without the "boring" grinding.

The other thing wrong with that is the fact that it completely contradicts the claim that "I don't have time to grind and get cards".  Tournaments require usually 2-3 hours straight to compete in unless you lose quickly.  If a player has no time to grind, how can they claim that they have time for tournaments?  2-3 hours grinding AI3 or T50 can easily gain you a couple dozen cards or more from electrum won and spins.  So really the time to grind for cards is there, it's just people want to be lazy and have an easy way out to skip past the grinding phase and straight into tournaments or PvP events or anything else.  I'd prefer not creating a system that would enable laziness or avoidance of doing the tedious work required for success and simply allows players to step in from day 1 and just play tournaments.

I'm 100% in favor of starter packs if you somehow set up the cards in a way that they will not work on the PvP servers.  Let the players use cards and farm for some, but they can't just skip the process and jump into PvP/Tourmanents/Events with tons of freebies.  There is nothing wrong with expecting players to earn their own decks beyond the starter set.

[BluePriest]

you just don't want to go through the process of building up your card base like everyone else and just skip right to the end-game of playing for prizes.

What's wrong with that? (regardless of whether a player "really" has time to grind or not)

How to you show how awesome you are in any mmo? By taking the time to get the best equipment. If you could just skip right to the end, what does kicking the other persons butt really mean? Nothing, thats what it means. It doesnt show dedication, it doesnt show skill. It doesnt show anything at all. If you want to use any deck in  the world and not work for it you can go to the trainer.

Im all for starter packs, howeverthey shouldnt make THAT big of a difference.

[Astrocyte]

Just because we live in a society that wants immediate gratification doesn't mean we need to cater to everyone's desires to not put in the hard work. ... You just create a new level where people will complain that it's not fair to the casual player while simply enabling them to try to take part in the "fun" events without the "boring" grinding. ... 2-3 hours grinding AI3 or T50 can easily gain you a couple dozen cards or more from electrum won and spins. I'd prefer not creating a system that would enable laziness or avoidance of doing the tedious work required for success and simply allows players to step in from day 1 and just play tournaments.

No one's talking about giving away rares and ultra-rares, or allowing people to start playing big-time PvP decks immediately. Speeding up the grinding process will not lead to total devolution of the earning mechanism. If it somehow leads to more whining, so what? Give Zanzarino some credit. He shut down the "Free Nymph Day" idea even though it seemed pretty popular with a wide range of forum members.

I don't understand the need to earn the right to play the "fun" parts of the game by spending days, weeks or months doing "hard work." Games are supposed to be fun, right? Does anyone here play Elements to build character?

As for being "lazy" for not wanting to put enough time into a game ... I've spent probably 8-10 hours a week on Elements for the past six weeks. Five of those weeks have been spent using two forum-approved grinding decks (and they're getting pretty boring). I still do not have enough cards to participate in any of the PvP events and have only had the money and cards to build a deck for 1 of the 6 tournaments that have gone by since I started. Am I really "lazy" for wanting to be able to play PvP tournaments and events after putting 48-60 hours into this game?

[Astrocyte]

How to you show how awesome you are in any mmo? By taking the time to get the best equipment. If you could just skip right to the end, what does kicking the other persons butt really mean? Nothing, thats what it means. It doesnt show dedication, it doesnt show skill. It doesnt show anything at all. If you want to use any deck in  the world and not work for it you can go to the trainer.

Im all for starter packs, howeverthey shouldnt make THAT big of a difference.

Heh, I was waiting for someone to bring up MMOs.

Any worthwhile MMO has a social and group dynamic that is its own reward from the very beginning stages of the game. In CCGs, you don't get to have any of that at all until you have enough cards to play in tournaments. Grinding isn't the fun part, the trainer isn't the fun part, using "any deck in the world" isn't the fun part, having every card in the game isn't the fun part. Playing with other people is the fun part.

No one is talking about "skipping right to the end" and using "any deck in the world." People are acting like we're asking for every card in the game just for signing up, and all we're talking about is speeding up the grinding process A LITTLE BIT for unupped, non-rare cards. This would not confer skill, or automatic tournament wins, or status, or anything. It wouldn't even mean that people could use unupped grinders immediately, since most still require a few specific rares to work their best. It would mean that there are more carrots to grind for, and that more people could participate in the game a little more quickly and easily. That's all.

[DrunkDestroyer]

Let's not be ridiculous.
So far, my favourite idea has been johanhowitzer's, which shows off some basic synergys, while giving players some staple cards they will need to build their decks.

This is a 40 card thing I made right now, and it has no relation to his whatsoever (unless he says it is the sort of thing he was thinking of) - and what, they will at best get it for 200 electrum, one time only? They can sell them, and make a one time profit if they choose to do that.

Nothing here makes an amazing deck, they will still need to figure it out for themselves (We don't- for better or worse we have access to the best grinding decks around).

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They get it for 200 at best, and can start participating a little more in tourneys, events, are encouraged to work with synergies, get a good starting deal, everybody wins. Additional packs (different elements) cost more.

Pros can live with it. You've made it.

[YoungSot]

No one is talking about "skipping right to the end" and using "any deck in the world." People are acting like we're asking for every card in the game just for signing up, and all we're talking about is speeding up the grinding process A LITTLE BIT for unupped, non-rare cards. This would not confer skill, or automatic tournament wins, or status, or anything. It wouldn't even mean that people could use unupped grinders immediately, since most still require a few specific rares to work their best. It would mean that there are more carrots to grind for, and that more people could participate in the game a little more quickly and easily. That's all.

This. There are plenty of sensible suggestions in this thread that don't throw off the balance of the game, or suddenly allow new players to have all the rewards without any work. What starter packs do is allow new players to reach a point where they can enjoy trying out various decks/strategies (which is a big part of what makes the game fun).

So far, my favourite idea has been johanhowitzer's, which shows off some basic synergys, while giving players some staple cards they will need to build their decks.

Agreed. That's a good example of one of the "sensible" suggestions.

[BluePriest]

Heh, I was waiting for someone to bring up MMOs.

Any worthwhile MMO has a social and group dynamic that is its own reward from the very beginning stages of the game. In CCGs, you don't get to have any of that at all until you have enough cards to play in tournaments. Grinding isn't the fun part, the trainer isn't the fun part, using "any deck in the world" isn't the fun part, having every card in the game isn't the fun part. Playing with other people is the fun part.

No one is talking about "skipping right to the end" and using "any deck in the world." People are acting like we're asking for every card in the game just for signing up, and all we're talking about is speeding up the grinding process A LITTLE BIT for unupped, non-rare cards. This would not confer skill, or automatic tournament wins, or status, or anything. It wouldn't even mean that people could use unupped grinders immediately, since most still require a few specific rares to work their best. It would mean that there are more carrots to grind for, and that more people could participate in the game a little more quickly and easily. That's all.

I could create plenty of great decks with a completely new account. With the new oracle its possible to get an upped card the very first day with not much work at all since it predicts the first FG. That ALONE is a big step to making upgrades much more accessible. Then you also when your first rare from the quests, AND the new ai3s have a LOT better chance of giving you a rare than the old ones did due to them being more organized.

As I have said before, I like the idea of starter packs, however, Im trying to show some misconceptions that people have. Its actually already a lot easier than it use to be.

[Aitvaras]

I could create plenty of great decks with a completely new account. With the new oracle its possible to get an upped card the very first day with not much work at all since it predicts the first FG. That ALONE is a big step to making upgrades much more accessible. Then you also when your first rare from the quests, AND the new ai3s have a LOT better chance of giving you a rare than the old ones did due to them being more organized.

As I have said before, I like the idea of starter packs, however, Im trying to show some misconceptions that people have. Its actually already a lot easier than it use to be.

3 rares in 40ish games today. Just not the ones I want ^^ (2 pharao and a druidic staff.)
I guess we could use a new starters guide aswell.. some things have changed much.

[BluePriest]

3/40 (7.5%) is a very generous rate to gain rares in games. You could kill hundreds of creatures in mmos and not get a single rare item.

[Genuinous]

This might have been said before, but I'm writing this response after seeing the poll in the beginning.
Chance for Nymphs? Rare weapons? Rare cards? NO!
Let's start with the easiest, nymphs. I think everyone would agree that they would love to get more of them, but by doing this we would make nymphs not that rare at all! The thrill of oracle (and certain pvp events) would be lost, if nymphs weren't that rare anymore. I have 3 nymphs, but even though I'd love to get more, I don't think making them available for everyone just for money, it's just not what nymphs are for.

Rare weapons and cards. Go farm! I think I had most necessiary rare cards within a week or two after starting the game. I know most of this thanks goes to rare card farms, but I think this is the same for all new players (this issue will be more accurate to discuss when T500 will be introduced and farms eliminated). I started with a phoenix based deck, switched to golem rush and I HAD FUN. Farming AI3 and Top50 was not boring. There are many great decks you get to face, Top50 is changing constantly, I would not consider this as boring at all.

My friend started playing the game a week ago and I helped him out with how to start (he picked life, adrenalined frogs and a couple heals) and withing 1-2 hours he had collected over 1000 electrums. It's not much if you're a more experienced player, but for new players it's a lot. And he didn't sell a single card, collected 5-6 rares. After this you could make any decks (without rares you lack of course) and go farm for more rares and electrum. I don't think it's too boring or much of an issue. If you think it's boring after a few hours, you will get bored anyway.

Starter pack wouldn't be a bad idea, but come on, no rares and nymphs. Sample decks could also be useful, but you can get the electrums needed quickly anyway. It is a good idea to support new players, but I think an introduction to forums, wiki and possibly mentoring would be way more useful than giving cards away for money... I got more help from wiki, than a whole bunch of free cards would have been for me, when I (as a total newby) didn't even know how to play the game properly.

[Manipul8r]

That is some good and new input Genuinous, I really only added those options into the poll just for completeness' sake.  I personally would not want anything in the packs that you could not buy in the bazaar.  I also got a lot of great information from this forum and the wiki, but in my opinion (my perspective may be skewed), looking up decklists all the time can ruin a new players' experimentation phase just as much as a 'starter pack' can, if not more.

I guess the difference in perspective between myself and some others is that I've played card games in the past and learning to play this one at a decent level took less than an hour.  Not that the game isn't great - it's great for different reasons, but there is only so much complexity you can have in a Flash-based card game, and skills from more intricate card games are easily applied here.  I reset the game and tried a few different starting elements, but realized I'd have to spend a relatively long time playing the same decks.  I understand that this would be a good idea for newer CCG players, and I don't want that learning period to be skipped.  However, I don't think forcing players to play the same decks for days or weeks is going to teach them much more than if they played it for a couple of hours (or played 3 different decks each hour!), and allowing them to get packs like DrunkDestroyer suggested could be beneficial to both complete newbies and players like myself.  It just has to be done right, and ironing that out is the goal of this thread, whether or not it gets implemented.

This might have been said before, but I'm writing this response after seeing the poll in the beginning.
Chance for Nymphs? Rare weapons? Rare cards? NO!
Let's start with the easiest, nymphs. I think everyone would agree that they would love to get more of them, but by doing this we would make nymphs not that rare at all! The thrill of oracle (and certain pvp events) would be lost, if nymphs weren't that rare anymore. I have 3 nymphs, but even though I'd love to get more, I don't think making them available for everyone just for money, it's just not what nymphs are for.

Rare weapons and cards. Go farm! I think I had most necessiary rare cards within a week or two after starting the game. I know most of this thanks goes to rare card farms, but I think this is the same for all new players (this issue will be more accurate to discuss when T500 will be introduced and farms eliminated). I started with a phoenix based deck, switched to golem rush and I HAD FUN. Farming AI3 and Top50 was not boring. There are many great decks you get to face, Top50 is changing constantly, I would not consider this as boring at all.

My friend started playing the game a week ago and I helped him out with how to start (he picked life, adrenalined frogs and a couple heals) and withing 1-2 hours he had collected over 1000 electrums. It's not much if you're a more experienced player, but for new players it's a lot. And he didn't sell a single card, collected 5-6 rares. After this you could make any decks (without rares you lack of course) and go farm for more rares and electrum. I don't think it's too boring or much of an issue. If you think it's boring after a few hours, you will get bored anyway.

Starter pack wouldn't be a bad idea, but come on, no rares and nymphs. Sample decks could also be useful, but you can get the electrums needed quickly anyway. It is a good idea to support new players, but I think an introduction to forums, wiki and possibly mentoring would be way more useful than giving cards away for money... I got more help from wiki, than a whole bunch of free cards would have been for me, when I (as a total newby) didn't even know how to play the game properly.