Solving Speed Rainbows

[Demagog]

Let's face it, speed rainbows are the dominant deck at the moment. Earlier today, I faced not three, not four, but five speed rainbows in a row in PvP 2, against a different opponent each time. Now, I'm not complaining because speed rainbows are difficult to beat (because they aren't, I was using an anti-speed rainbow), I'm complaining because that's a deck type that is way too common. You really can't enjoy PvP2 if every other game is against a speed rainbow. If your deck can't beat a speed rainbow, you're not going to do so well in PvP2, unless you're just lucky and don't face anyone using it. To me, that's a clear sign that something is wrong.

So, is there a way to fix the problem? Is it even a problem?

This has been discussed before. Specifically, here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10216.0.html). For those of us that believe speed rainbows to be too powerful/common/mundane/etcetera, supernova is the agreed upon card causing our grief. Nerfing any other cards in the deck wouldn't work; they are, for the most part, balanced.

One other way to fix the problem is to create several more counters to the deck. Right now, we have mono-gravity, fire stall, tons of healing (life rush or miracles), and probably a few others that aren't coming to mind. And none of those are always successful.

Anyway, I've been awake for 24 hours, so I'm probably not making the best case. I know some of you agree with me though, so hopefully yall can't pick up where I'm leaving off for the moment.

[BurnOne]

Code: [Select]

744 744 744 744 744 744 744 74d 74d 74d 74d 74e 74e 74e 74e 74e 74f 74f 74f 74f 74f 74f 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dg 7dm 7dm 7dr 7dr

Absolutly effective against Speedbows Dema.

[Demagog]

You missed the point. As I said, speed rainbows are not difficult to deal with. The problem is that they are much too common. In a balanced game, you should see a mostly even distribution of decks. Some would be more popular than others, being easier to build or geared toward speed, but the number of speed rainbows in PvP is ridiculous. Even if people start taking counters, driving down the frequency of speed rainbow use, eventually those counters would be used less, then speed rainbows would be prevalent again. Basically like deer and coyote populations.

[redium]

The key is to make a metabow and then lose to everything else that is not a speedbow.  I kid, but a heavy ccspeedbow would prob work.

[Amilir]

So, two people completely missing the point, and one ignoring secondary factors.

Why are speedbows popular?  Upped PvP decks are only made after getting a fully upped FG farmer.  What do many of the good FG farmers have?  Supernovas and quantum towers.

Regardless of speedbows being balanced or not, you'll see far more of them because it's generally much cheaper to build than other upped PvP decks.

[Glitch]

When nerfing decks, you first look at possible solutions.  For instance, what decks could COUNTER this deck and why don't they?

The answer is blackhole.  It counters speed rainbows really well.  Unfortunately, it's a rather situational card (kind of pointless against monos or duos), but it's overpowered against rainbows.

So what we need is a card that isn't overpowered against rainbow but it's still useful against other decks.

Proposed card:
Manaburn (2 fire, 2 other upgraded)
Your opponent takes damage for all mana they gained last turn.

Also, nerfing S.nova wouldn't hurt.

[redium]

So, is there a way to fix the problem? Is it even a problem?

Sorry I mistook that as "Is there a counter".  Especially considering the fact the original poster mentions counters.  Pardon my confusion. 

Why are speedbows popular?  Speed, mass quanta production that is in harmony with cheap yet effective cards, a plethora of options that host`s creatures, cc, and pc, balance. 

Is this a problem?  No, its just one of the best options.  You would think it would be praised since it implements all the elements, the pan-ultimate deck. 

Want more variety in deck use?  Add more balance and speed to all the elements, such as Fire and Darkness have. 

I would like more variety, but I think the key is not to take away from rainbows, but add to the individual elements to increase their synergy, make cards that only work with their specific elements and have an effective result.  Also support more duo and trio decks with synergistic cards (pendulum was a nice addition).  Stop making overly meta and stand alone cards.  Quanta Boosts for elements.

[Daytripper]

I haven't played that many decks, but if a rainbow is ''popular but not very good,'' I don't see what you can do about it. You can't change people's preferences. It will go away in time.

Adding cards is not going to help really. Rainbows could take on any card, so if a card becomes popular in mono, it can go over to rainbow..

If this keeps happening, and if rainbows are taking over the game... Just increase the overall card cost. That way they become much slower.

[jmdt]

Why are speedbows popular?  Upped PvP decks are only made after getting a fully upped FG farmer.  What do many of the good FG farmers have?  Supernovas and quantum towers.

Regardless of speedbows being balanced or not, you'll see far more of them because it's generally much cheaper to build than other upped PvP decks.

Exactly.  Speedbows are popular because people have those cards already.

Speedbows are hardly OP, they're just popular.  When more people begin packing black holes, huge CC, etc. people may begin shying away from speedbows as much.

[Demagog]

So, two people completely missing the point, and one ignoring secondary factors.

Why are speedbows popular?  Upped PvP decks are only made after getting a fully upped FG farmer.  What do many of the good FG farmers have?  Supernovas and quantum towers.

Regardless of speedbows being balanced or not, you'll see far more of them because it's generally much cheaper to build than other upped PvP decks.

You missed the point. As I said, speed rainbows are not difficult to deal with. The problem is that they are much too common. In a balanced game, you should see a mostly even distribution of decks. Some would be more popular than others, being easier to build or geared toward speed, but the number of speed rainbows in PvP is ridiculous. Even if people start taking counters, driving down the frequency of speed rainbow use, eventually those counters would be used less, then speed rainbows would be prevalent again. Basically like deer and coyote populations.

So you basically expanded on what I said. Anyway, if speed rainbows were balanced, you'd see less of them as people create other PvP decks. But they will keep relying on that speed rainbow the vast majority of the time. The deck is literally a must-have.

Jmdt, black holes have been out for a good while now, and you still don't see them much. As Gl1tch said, the card is too situational. It's only useful against mono/duo's if you have EQ's or discords, but EQ's and discords don't do much to speed rainbows. A person has to choose between countering speed rainbows, or being able to play well against other things.

So, is there a way to fix the problem? Is it even a problem?

Sorry I mistook that as "Is there a counter".  Especially considering the fact the original poster mentions counters.  Pardon my confusion. 

Why are speedbows popular?  Speed, mass quanta production that is in harmony with cheap yet effective cards, a plethora of options that host`s creatures, cc, and pc, balance. 

Is this a problem?  No, its just one of the best options.  You would think it would be praised since it implements all the elements, the pan-ultimate deck. 

Want more variety in deck use?  Add more balance and speed to all the elements, such as Fire and Darkness have. 

I would like more variety, but I think the key is not to take away from rainbows, but add to the individual elements to increase their synergy, make cards that only work with their specific elements and have an effective result.  Also support more duo and trio decks with synergistic cards (pendulum was a nice addition).  Stop making overly meta and stand alone cards.  Quanta Boosts for elements.

You just argued that it is a problem. No deck should be "one of the best options." If we made a poll right now, asking players to vote on which decks are the best PvP decks, speed rainbow would be at the top. Yes, there are counters to speed rainbows; however, speed rainbows are basically Swiss-army knives. They perform so well against so many decks, that it's worth it to run into the rare anti-speed rainbow (I hardly ever see them).

When nerfing decks, you first look at possible solutions.  For instance, what decks could COUNTER this deck and why don't they?

The answer is blackhole.  It counters speed rainbows really well.  Unfortunately, it's a rather situational card (kind of pointless against monos or duos), but it's overpowered against rainbows.

So what we need is a card that isn't overpowered against rainbow but it's still useful against other decks.

Proposed card:
Manaburn (2 fire, 2 other upgraded)
Your opponent takes damage for all mana they gained last turn.

Also, nerfing S.nova wouldn't hurt.

Ya, that's kinda where I was going with this. Although I'd say the first step is deciding on whether the deck is a problem in the first place. But after that, ya, what you said :-p

I think your manaburn card is a little too cheap lol... play a supernova on your turn after your opponent played one, or even two/three, then play a few manaburns. If that doesn't kill them, you can probably finish them off with a few cheap creatures.

[Malduk]

Want more variety in deck use?  Add more balance and speed to all the elements, such as Fire and Darkness have. 

I would like more variety, but I think the key is not to take away from rainbows, but add to the individual elements to increase their synergy, make cards that only work with their specific elements and have an effective result.  Also support more duo and trio decks with synergistic cards (pendulum was a nice addition).  Stop making overly meta and stand alone cards.  Quanta Boosts for elements.

You just argued that it is a problem. No deck should be "one of the best options." If we made a poll right now, asking players to vote on which decks are the best PvP decks, speed rainbow would be at the top. Yes, there are counters to speed rainbows; however, speed rainbows are basically Swiss-army knives. They perform so well against so many decks, that it's worth it to run into the rare anti-speed rainbow (I hardly ever see them).

Fact is, not many mono/duo decks are swiss-army knife deck. People dont like to have auto-loss against certain decks. Solution really is to make elements more rounded with addition of new cards. There is no need to nerf something that isnt strong enough to need a nerf. Obviously.
I also like rounded decks, and first deck I built for PvP really was rainbow deck. And Amilir is right. Upgrades are really expensive when you start playing the game. Supernova is awesome choice for one of the first upgrades as you can build tons of decks with it, for all types of opponents. With things as they are, it is perfectly understandable that people tend to upgrade rainbow cards first and build speedbows, control rainbows etc etc. Boring? Yeah. But that doesnt mean rainbow needs a nerf. It means elements need more cards and good, viable alternatives.

[Kuross]

I think it's also safe to say that, given the limited amount of cards in existence, people will naturally gravitate to decks like speedbow.

All it would take is the inclusion of one card that can be used effectively in general, and not just to counter speedbow, as already suggested. Perhaps perusing the already submitted cards and pushing for one to be made is in order to help? I personally rather see new cards added than old cards nerfed.

I believe one issue at hand is how much press rainbows get. When newer players get to that plateau where they can upgrade some cards, all they hear about are how powerful speedbows are, or rainbows in general, and so they go right into making one. Then they hang out in PvP2 for a bit playing their new toy. Now, that is not saying Bows aren't good, but promoting other decks that do well, both against Bows and in general, might be one way to deal with it? Just a suggestion.


On a side note to counter speedbows, there are a few decks out there that can and still be effective. I play an oddball pvp deck that can compete with speedbows, but something one may not expect. I do it mostly for fun, but it does well vs speedbows.