Solving Fire Stall

[Malduk]

The deck is not effective because of those 5 points. Its main strenght is that it has enough control to destroy your creatures and permanents, while healing the damage you do with those creatures.
You wrote yourself this:

If your deck is not able to destroy the shards or to do more than 20-30 damage a turn in the midlegame, it is because you are used to win games with early rushing decks that lose firepower when the game last longer.

How exactly do you do more than 20-30 dmg per turn if you're up against shitload of CC cards? It is not really easy. And THAT is the problem with the deck. It has insane control, damage AND healing. It has nothing to do with what people are "used to do".

As for Pendulums... Generally, it is better to have two different types of towers than two Pendulums. Pendulums main strenght is that they are improving your draw chances (ie, less chance of getting in situations where you just cant draw towers from other element). They make duo decks, that need more quanta than just mark, a bit more dependable. The card is nice, but hardly brings revolution to the metagame.

Btw, the only AI that will be harder to farm if SoG gets nerf, are Fake Gods. You dont need them for AI 0,1,2,3,5 , and as for T50, decks there will also have SoGs nerfed, which could just speed up grinding T50.

And who knows, maybe people will get crazy enough to use elements with healing abilities when they need healing, instead of simply tossing SoG in the deck.

[smuglapse]

You know where it says "War is Coming..." at the top of the Forums...

And who knows, maybe people will get crazy enough to use elements with healing abilities when they need healing, instead of simply tossing SoG in the deck.

[Innominate]

So it seems that there are several counters to a pure fire stall.

• Mirror Shield/Jade Shield - shutting down the fire lances for 1 or 2 light quanta seems like a good deal. Jade Shield is even good on its own, whereas Mirror Shield is only really good in a light mono or as a counter. Some form of permanent control might be needed against Fahrenheits
• Quanta denial - Earthquake, discord/black hole or pests. All of the above will effectively shut down a fire stall and a good deal of other decks
• Very fast rush - I don't actually PvP, so I don't know which rush decks will be enough to beat the CC. Maybe graboid/shrieker with burrowing? Each shrieker is only 5 damage a turn burrowed, but you should on average have twice as many shriekers as he has SoGs at any time, and they can be unburrowed for a finisher - shrieker rush could also have earthquakes to absolutely thrash this deck
• Aether with fire/darkness splash for permanent control - Beats the CC, destroys SoGs, Fire Shields and Fahrenheits
• Powerful healing stalls - Granite skin plus miracle to heal hundreds of HP easily. Earthquake again would destroy fire stalls, but this deck would not be particularly effective against growth decks (unless it also packed antimatter, like MrSexington's "Rage Quit Deck")

The biggest argument I can see against the fire stall is that its counters are not competitive against other deck types, which for some of them may be true.

Now if you want my idea for a nerf, consider this for all the "growth nukes" (fire lance, ice lance, siphon life): X damage per 10 quanta, up to 24 damage. Now it takes 5 of the cards to kill somebody, assuming you play them simultaneously (no healing) and you haven't already damaged them. This would mean that fire lance's effectiveness plateaus at 70 quanta (though you can kill somebody with 5 cards and 63 quanta; 4*21 + 18 = 102 damage). Basically, the stall would have to survive for on average 18 rounds (assuming 30 cards and 6 lances) to get enough lances to kill you. And if you can't kill it in 18 rounds, and you can't heal or prevent the damage that it does before lancing (say from Fahrenheit), and you can't deny quanta, outlast its damage or play a reflecting shield, then what does your deck actually do?

[PuppyChow]

So it seems that there are several counters to a pure fire stall.

• Mirror Shield/Jade Shield - shutting down the fire lances for 1 or 2 light quanta seems like a good deal. Jade Shield is even good on its own, whereas Mirror Shield is only really good in a light mono or as a counter. Some form of permanent control might be needed against Fahrenheits
• Quanta denial - Earthquake, discord/black hole or pests. All of the above will effectively shut down a fire stall and a good deal of other decks
• Very fast rush - I don't actually PvP, so I don't know which rush decks will be enough to beat the CC. Maybe graboid/shrieker with burrowing? Each shrieker is only 5 damage a turn burrowed, but you should on average have twice as many shriekers as he has SoGs at any time, and they can be unburrowed for a finisher - shrieker rush could also have earthquakes to absolutely thrash this deck
• Aether with fire/darkness splash for permanent control - Beats the CC, destroys SoGs, Fire Shields and Fahrenheits
• Powerful healing stalls - Granite skin plus miracle to heal hundreds of HP easily. Earthquake again would destroy fire stalls, but this deck would not be particularly effective against growth decks (unless it also packed antimatter, like MrSexington's "Rage Quit Deck")

The biggest argument I can see against the fire stall is that its counters are not competitive against other deck types, which for some of them may be true.

Now if you want my idea for a nerf, consider this for all the "growth nukes" (fire lance, ice lance, siphon life): X damage per 10 quanta, up to 24 damage. Now it takes 5 of the cards to kill somebody, assuming you play them simultaneously (no healing) and you haven't already damaged them. This would mean that fire lance's effectiveness plateaus at 70 quanta (though you can kill somebody with 5 cards and 63 quanta; 4*21 + 18 = 102 damage). Basically, the stall would have to survive for on average 18 rounds (assuming 30 cards and 6 lances) to get enough lances to kill you. And if you can't kill it in 18 rounds, and you can't heal or prevent the damage that it does before lancing (say from Fahrenheit), and you can't deny quanta, outlast its damage or play a reflecting shield, then what does your deck actually do?

I like your idea for a nerf, but about the counters, like you said, only the "quanta control" is an effective counter for other decks as well, and the early rush won't even counter fire stall since fire stall can rush CC just as fast.

[Glitch]

And who knows, maybe people will get crazy enough to use elements with healing abilities when they need healing, instead of simply tossing SoG in the deck.

...

+karma.

THat was the most win thing someone's written on this forum in a while.  I couldn't agree more.

[yahoo123]

First puppychow, u fail to see that huge FG rainbows that sports SoDs+ bonewalls/jade shield+Pa'd puly can get pretty tough for fire stall. (Yes there are variations of FG rainbows using Jade shield). Secondly, ur idea of making fire lance unable to target players is really lame. lets just take ice bolt and siphon as an example: they all cost the same, both deals 1 less dmg per hit while both hv more abilities (heal,freeze). So if they were balanced with fire lance b4 fire stall came, they should remain at the same footing and they should get nerfed too. And as u said , they hv different uses, fire lance is mainly for attacking the other player DIRECTLY. Removing the abillity to target players will make all 3 cards(siphon and ice lances are counted too, since they also provide surprise dmg) lose a lot of versatility, thus a huge nerf. Not to mention that ur idea of +2/-3 is a bad ripoff from the rage potion idea.

For those who wants to nerf the SoG further, I must say u are getting a bit selfish. thats because new players to the game rly needs SoGs to farm false gods, and a nerf will just make it a lot harder for them(Just look at the sundial nerf dude).

If u guys rly want to know y fire stall is overpowered,Id say it is  a problem with farenhite. It grants waaaaaaay too much late power.Do not think that farenhite is OP however, since farenhite is absolutly inferior in early stages of the game.So for those who suggest the reflected farenhite dmg, u are being utterly unfair to the element fire since its the only element weapon that will get nerfed by that.

IMO if u want to nerf the deck, ask zanz to change farenhite entirely

P.S. for the dude that suggested the decreasing efficiency with the increasing of SoGs, I would remind u that fire stall players would just use 3 SoGs with 3 sundials.

[PuppyChow]

First puppychow, u fail to see that huge FG rainbows that sports SoDs+ bonewalls/jade shield+Pa'd puly can get pretty tough for fire stall. (Yes there are variations of FG rainbows using Jade shield). Secondly, ur idea of making fire lance unable to target players is really lame. lets just take ice bolt and siphon as an example: they all cost the same, both deals 1 less dmg per hit while both hv more abilities (heal,freeze). So if they were balanced with fire lance b4 fire stall came, they should remain at the same footing and they should get nerfed too. And as u said , they hv different uses, fire lance is mainly for attacking the other player DIRECTLY. Removing the abillity to target players will make all 3 cards(siphon and ice lances are counted too, since they also provide surprise dmg) lose a lot of versatility, thus a huge nerf. Not to mention that ur idea of +2/-3 is a bad ripoff from the rage potion idea.

For those who wants to nerf the SoG further, I must say u are getting a bit selfish. thats because new players to the game rly needs SoGs to farm false gods, and a nerf will just make it a lot harder for them(Just look at the sundial nerf dude).

If u guys rly want to know y fire stall is overpowered,Id say it is  a problem with farenhite. It grants waaaaaaay too much late power.Do not think that farenhite is OP however, since farenhite is absolutly inferior in early stages of the game.So for those who suggest the reflected farenhite dmg, u are being utterly unfair to the element fire since its the only element weapon that will get nerfed by that.

IMO if u want to nerf the deck, ask zanz to change farenhite entirely

P.S. for the dude that suggested the decreasing efficiency with the increasing of SoGs, I would remind u that fire stall players would just use 3 SoGs with 3 sundials.

1) Lern2spellcheck/grammar check.

2) Try playing a FG rainbow in the championship league. You'll lose. Lots. FG rainbows, jade shield or not, are completely hopeless in the metagame.

3) Who said we had to nerf ice lance and siphon life too? Why do they need to stay on the same footing? Siphon life is different from ice lance is different from fire lance. They're all different; what's wrong with making them a bit more different? The others could still target health, and may see more use because of it. The difference is that fire lance would be special: it could provide a buff or a control card. You just couldn't use it to win. As to ripping off rage potion, maybe, but that seems to me to be the best way to go.

4) Nerfing SoG WOULD make it harder to false gods, but I don't think SoG is the way to go anyway. But if it WERE to happen, saying it shouldn't be nerfed because its needed for FG decks is stupid. You shouldn't balance cards or make an OP card just to make it easier against AI, because that changes the PvP spectrum in a bad way. Instead, balance the AI to go with the cards. AKA, nerf FGs.

5) Fahrenheit is hardly the problem. Fire stall can stall long enough to do 200 damage with just lances. It has absolutely no need of the fahrenheit's damage; it just helps it go a bit faster. And a lot of the time the fahrenheit is exploded anyway. AKA, fahrenheit = not a problem.

[Cancerplus]

Why not just limit the amount of SoG one can put into his/her deck. And make SoG 100% refundable to people don't waste money for upgrading 6 of them.

This would stop many annoying stall decks.