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Offline jmdt

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131341#msg131341
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2010, 09:16:59 pm »
I have an idea to help against fire stall without nerfing fire stall.  Make Jade shield and Mirror shield reflect farenheits extra damage and this deck could only win by a possible deck out.  If farenheit is out before the shield, the firestall would be so hosed with all that damage over time.
Explosion on your own Fahrenheit?

I think it should just reflect 50%...otherwise, GG for the Fire Staller if there is no way to win by deck out.
Isn't nerfing the fire stall without changing it the idea

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131357#msg131357
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2010, 09:42:56 pm »
I have an idea to help against fire stall without nerfing fire stall.  Make Jade shield and Mirror shield reflect farenheits extra damage and this deck could only win by a possible deck out.  If farenheit is out before the shield, the firestall would be so hosed with all that damage over time.
Explosion on your own Fahrenheit?

I think it should just reflect 50%...otherwise, GG for the Fire Staller if there is no way to win by deck out.
Isn't nerfing the fire stall without changing it the idea
No. The idea is nerfing fire stall adequately while having the least impact on other decks.

And making jade/mirror shield reflect the extra damage hardly solves the problem. Again, you're thinking of specific counters. Common archetypes nowadays don't carry those shields.

Offline jmdt

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131371#msg131371
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 09:58:39 pm »
And making jade/mirror shield reflect the extra damage hardly solves the problem. Again, you're thinking of specific counters. Common archetypes nowadays don't carry those shields.
I don't play PvP most of the time so I'm I have no idea what decks you see.  If fire stall is a popular deck and Jade shield counters it, then it seems as if incorporating Jade Shield would be a good idea.  Life mono/duo decks would become more popular in PvP.  How is that a bad thing adding more variety to the PvP scene and having a small shift in the metagame? 

Malduk

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131373#msg131373
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 10:02:54 pm »
Puppy, as you may notice rereading my post, I just pointed a finger at the card, I didnt offer any solution to the problem. Not very constructive, I know, but as you already said yourself, none of the cards on their own is so terribly overpowered. And I generally agree with that statement.
I do consider SoGs too strong in combinations with other cards, but I'm aware that having negative opinion on popular cards is... not popular.
And this very combination - of element that has the most powerful destruction and damage cards, and generally good healing (I think we can all agree that SoGs indeed ARE powerfull as they can be put in almost every deck) is simply (too) strong.

I'm fairly certain many decks could kill fire stall without healing. There are creatures you wont be able to touch with your CC (immortal creatures, burrow creatures), there are creatures that require multiple CC to be taken off the field, there are other types of damage (spell damage, poison). And then, there's draw. You really dont have to have 100 dmg in total to take down firestall that doesnt use SoGs. Firestall becomes MUCH more vulnerable without them.
I'm not saying removing SoGs means everything beats that deck, I'm saying that the deck itself wouldnt be nearly as OP as it is considered now.

But yeah, SoG is here to stay. So pointing fingers without providing a solution doesnt do us much good.

As for your comparison with Sundial, I agree with your facts you make there, but I disagree with conclusion. We already established that SoG on its own isnt such an awesome i-win card. It becomes great when spamed and/or combined with shields/CC. Sundial had the same power level regardless of other cards; it always provided no attack for 2 turns and drawing power. SoGs always provide 5xN healing, but healing per turn must be looked through damage per turn you receive. If you're healing for 20, but receiving 30 damage per turn, your HP bar goes down. If you're healing for 20, but receiving 10 per turn, your HP bar goes up. Big difference.
Anyway, point I'm trying to make is that every buff/nerf/rework must be looked seperately. You cant just draw conclusion: "if this card was buffed/nerfed by that much, than this card shouldnt be buffed/nerfed by this much".

After all that said, I'm not even sure myself what I'd do here. I also like to use SoGs in my decks, and dont think they should be removed from the game. However, in elements setup where every element has a field where it dominates, having a card that provides something powerful like healing to ALL elements is... well, tricky :) Suddenly you cant just say "its ok for fire to have massive damage and control, their defence sucks".
Other "other" cards either provide damage (that every element already has), or makes playing their strenghts easier (SoR). SoGs (and SoDs, but overall those are just weaker), give something NEW to all elements.
Maybe something along the lines of weapons that have extra benefit when combined with some elements, could be used on SoGs too.

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131374#msg131374
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 10:03:41 pm »
And making jade/mirror shield reflect the extra damage hardly solves the problem. Again, you're thinking of specific counters. Common archetypes nowadays don't carry those shields.
I don't play PvP most of the time so I'm I have no idea what decks you see.  If fire stall is a popular deck and Jade shield counters it, then it seems as if incorporating Jade Shield would be a good idea.  Life mono/duo decks would become more popular in PvP.  How is that a bad thing adding more variety to the PvP scene and having a small shift in the metagame?
As is, you have fire stall, a few decks that counter it, and then all the other decks. Fire stall beats all the other decks, the few decks that counter fire stall can beat fire stall and a few of the other decks, and the other decks can beat eachother/the few decks that counter fire stall.

Adding that part would change it to:
Fire stall, jade shield decks, and other decks. Jade shield decks beat fire stall, fire stall beats most of the other decks, and almost all of the other decks beat jade shield decks.

And making jade shield reflect extra fahrenheit damage just doesn't make sense. It actually *doesn't* reflect gavel damage I'm fairly sure, so why make a special rule?

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131379#msg131379
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 10:14:31 pm »
Quote
I'm fairly certain many decks could kill fire stall without healing. There are creatures you wont be able to touch with your CC (immortal creatures, burrow creatures), there are creatures that require multiple CC to be taken off the field, there are other types of damage (spell damage, poison). And then, there's draw. You really dont have to have 100 dmg in total to take down firestall that doesnt use SoGs. Firestall becomes MUCH more vulnerable without them.
Yes, but it would still be a viable deck. And again, which I think you've realized now, nerfing SoGs doesn't mean fire stall can't use them. Fire stall doesn't actually need that much healing. It needs the healing early, yes, but it doesn't need it in great volume (and that's just talking about the matches when you DO  need the healing).

But I can agree that without sogs it would be more vulnerable. But we can't just make sogs not available to decks with 6x fire lance and 6x rage elixir, because that just wouldn't make sense :P.

Quote
After all that said, I'm not even sure myself what I'd do here. I also like to use SoGs in my decks, and dont think they should be removed from the game. However, in elements setup where every element has a field where it dominates, having a card that provides something powerful like healing to ALL elements is... well, tricky Suddenly you cant just say "its ok for fire to have massive damage and control, their defence sucks".
Other "other" cards either provide damage (that every element already has), or makes playing their strenghts easier (SoR). SoGs (and SoDs, but overall those are just weaker), give something NEW to all elements.
Maybe something along the lines of weapons that have extra benefit when combined with some elements, could be used on SoGs too.
Yes, I agree SoG is a tricky card to balance.

My solution is this: give elements that need it more and more stalling power (like a time card that stops quanta production for 3 turns, or such), and THEN nerf SoG to the point where it's just as powerful as SoD after 7 turns: make it heal 3/turn, but reduce the cost to 1 other. It would still be used, but wouldn't be so terribly powerful. I think that's what you were just talking about too.

But that still doesn't solve the problem of fire stall. We can't just suddenly make all those extra stalling cards appear. They'll come in time, but the problem is right now.

And currently, the only route I can see is make fire lance unable to target health and make it better in a different way. The whole + attack - defense fits the theme of fire, imo.

Added a pole, btw.

Malduk

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131418#msg131418
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2010, 11:01:33 pm »
And currently, the only route I can see is make fire lance unable to target health and make it better in a different way. The whole + attack - defense fits the theme of fire, imo.

Added a pole, btw.
Well, I like fire lance as it is, and use it in several fire decks. Your suggestion would make it really great card for duo and rainbow decks; basically better version of rage elixir.

And the poll is...

- Nerf SoGs to the point of unusable is practically saying "dont vote here". I dont think anyone wants to make any card unusable, especially if that card is in most of your decks.
- Nerf Rage Elixir is uncalled nerf. Rage elixir is used almost exclusively as CC card in mono fire decks (with exception on lava golem if it manages to grow), and as a normal buff card, its not overpowered at all.

So the selection is rework on Lance, or post your own idea :)

Again, on the side note, 1 other quanta for 3 healing is something I'd probably sign to be implemented right now. It makes making decks a lot easier, but I cant be convinced that "other" cards should provide such a large amount of healing as they do now. As you said, they would still be used for healing, but definitely wouldnt enter every deck.

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131446#msg131446
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2010, 11:52:08 pm »
And currently, the only route I can see is make fire lance unable to target health and make it better in a different way. The whole + attack - defense fits the theme of fire, imo.

Added a pole, btw.
Well, I like fire lance as it is, and use it in several fire decks. Your suggestion would make it really great card for duo and rainbow decks; basically better version of rage elixir.

And the poll is...

- Nerf SoGs to the point of unusable is practically saying "dont vote here". I dont think anyone wants to make any card unusable, especially if that card is in most of your decks.
- Nerf Rage Elixir is uncalled nerf. Rage elixir is used almost exclusively as CC card in mono fire decks (with exception on lava golem if it manages to grow), and as a normal buff card, its not overpowered at all.

So the selection is rework on Lance, or post your own idea :)

Again, on the side note, 1 other quanta for 3 healing is something I'd probably sign to be implemented right now. It makes making decks a lot easier, but I cant be convinced that "other" cards should provide such a large amount of healing as they do now. As you said, they would still be used for healing, but definitely wouldnt enter every deck.
Looking at the poll, I can see how you'd get that idea. That wasn't what I meant by it though XD. I meant "Nerf SoG to the point where it's unusable in a fire stall." If people understand that that means it won't be all that useful elsewhere, well, good for them :). (I just added in a fire stall to it to clarify).

The reason I went with only those options is because those are the only options I've seen proposed, and are also the only options I can really think of. If you think of other ways to nerf it, go right ahead. I guess I should add in the jade/mirror shield one too.

About the 1 other quanta for 3 healing, I'm all for that, but not right now, when there's such a lack of stalling cards in the game. As I've said before, once time gets better ways to stall and build up scarabs, and death gets a better way to stall, and such, I'll sign for it. But right now I think it helps the game more than it hurts it.

Malduk

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131452#msg131452
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 12:06:49 am »
Aye, I get it, was just pointing it out as it did look weird :)

Since 1 other for 3 HP was the only real SoG nerf mentioned, I'd switch "unusable" to that actual suggestion. If its not much of a trouble ;) I dont really agree with any other proposed solution so far. Your suggestion of making lances not being able to target HP probably would deal with fire stall, but at the same time it would promote the card to the throne of cheap CC slash buff cards.

Offline Demagog

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131499#msg131499
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2010, 01:25:12 am »
While Puppy may have found the fire stall decks to require being considered in every match, I found the same was true for speed rainbows. If your deck can't beat a speed rainbow, you probably shouldn't use it. At the moment, I'd say speed rainbows are more of a problem than fire stalls.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131519#msg131519
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 01:59:37 am »
Just an oddball thought, but instead of nerfing the cards in the deck, perhaps we should just add additional counters.

Maybe certain cards are "fire proof" and immune from damage from fire cards.  It'd have GREAT synergy with rage potion...

MrBlonde

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131871#msg131871
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 05:52:22 pm »
Well it looks like SoG is getting a nerf. Just checked the trainer and it's cost is 3 now. I was going to post this in the Card Changes section but wasn't sure if that was an official thread to be updated by anyone in particular.

 

blarg: