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Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131176#msg131176
« on: August 04, 2010, 06:15:22 pm »
Warning: Big Big Big Post. Watch out!


Alright, so before we really get to the bulk of the post, I need to clarify that you can talk about a deck being OP, just as you can talk about a card being OP. UP, not so much, since a deck can't be *under*powered. A deck being underpowered is almost always simply a case of a deck not being built very well so while it is low powered, it isn't underpowered.

Now, a deck needs to have it's effect on the game analyzed to decide if it's OP and then the deck needs to be analyzed itself to decide what part of it needs to be nerfed.

So let's do that with fire stall! :)

Coming off of CL, you probably know how powerful fire stall is. Time and time again, I've based my decision on what to fight with on whether or not I thought they'd take fire stall. Now a deck that influences the game in such a way, where you need to consider the possibility of it at all times, is considerably over powered.

And the reason you need to specifically consider firestall is because of its few counters. I can list them off the top of my head:
--Quanta denial decks (Pestal, the shutdown, earth/darkness)
--Fractal rush decks (Frogtal, FracCharger, FracPhoenix (usually))
--Light/Fire DG Style (But only half the time)
Now, that's not nearly enough. Especially since out of those, only the shutdown and phoenix fractal actually a very viable deck for other matches. Not to say they don't work, but aren't the best.

So I think we can all agree that fire stall is an overpowered deck. Now the next question to ask ourselves, is what makes fire stall so powerful? What can we tweak so it's not as powerful?

I bet you just said SoG. I know, I'm a damn magician.

Well, it isn't. Good try though. Shard of gratitude's function within fire stall is akin to electrocutor's function within Rol/Hope. The core deck still functions without it, but it makes certain matchups possible and others easier. But if fire stall didn't use it, it would be perfect, right? Well we have to consider that nerfing SoG doesn't necessarily mean fire stall wouldn't use it. I mean, if electrocutor had its cost increased by one, would Rol/Hope stop using it?

No. So giving SoG the small nerf (+1 cost, or -1 healing) it needs (it does indeed need the nerf, but not due to fire stall) wouldn't work. SoG would still function perfectly in the deck, by letting you be more conservative with your control and helping fire shield kill immortal creatures. Not as well, but well enough for the purpose. In fact, the difference would be negligible in the case of fire stall.

So the only other alternative is give SoG a very large nerf, like making it only heal 3. Now you could argue that that would make it un-used in fire stall, but that's a nerf exactly like sundial got: half its power. SoG isn't as powerful as sundial was, so by no means does it need a nerf of equal power. Nerfing a card so much simply to make a single deck less OP while making countless other decks unviable is stupid.

Okay, so we've decided that nerfing SoG isn't the way to go to solve the problem of fire stall. Let's look at the rest of the deck:

Rage Elixir
Fire Lance
Fire Shield
Burning Tower
Fahrenheit
Explosion

Let's remove burning tower and fahrenheit and fire shield since they're weapons/shields/towers (not necessary to the strategy).

Rage Elixir - 3  :fire for 6 damage. Lightning is 1  :aether for 5 damage.
Fire Lance - Similar to other pump spells. Not OP.
Explosion - Steal, for 3  :darkness , destroys a perm and then plays it on your side. 1  :fire for just the destroying seems fair.

But one of these has to be overpowered, right? Since fire stall is overpowered and all.

Wrong.

Just because a deck is overpowered doesn't mean the cards in it are. Rather, it means the cards work too well together. With 12 CC cards (+ fire storms) and 6 Perm control cards, you can basically destroy anything the opponent plays, and then use leftover lances to win. That's what makes fire stall so powerful: the ability to destroy anything your opponent plays. Not any singular card is OP, but because the cards generate so much control as a whole it's overpowering.

So here we have a deck that is dominating the PvP spectrum, a deck without any cards we can nerf to make it not dominating. Seems like a catch 22, right? The only way to nerf a deck that needs nerfing is to nerf the cards in the deck, right? But nerfing the cards in the deck is either undeserved or won't change the deck enough, right?

Well there's one other way to fix this. You can change cards without nerfing them. And if you choose the right card, the effect outside of the deck will be very small. Which brings me to my suggestion:

Make fire lance change to "Target creature gains +2/-3 for every 10 fire quanta in your possession."

What does this solve? Well, fire stall is still viable as a deck out deck, but suddenly it's a lot slower. And think about it. What deck, other than fire stall, specifically utilizes fire lance's ability to target health as a win condition? None that I can think of. At the same time, it opens up new opportunities to use fire lance as a buff card. This seems the ideal change to me: nerf fire stall, while keeping everything else the same, and actually promoting originality.

That said, it would then set itself apart from other pump lances. Siphon life and ice lance both target health. But they're different in other ways. Why not make fire lance special in its own way? Also, the name *may* need to be changed.

And that's it. I think.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131191#msg131191
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 06:36:57 pm »
Dude, making fire lance unable to target your opponent is a pretty large nerf.

Why not just make it so rage potion can only target your creatures.  I mean, it's intended mechanic is to give YOUR stuff +6, not to deal 6 damage.

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131201#msg131201
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 06:44:48 pm »
Dude, making fire lance unable to target your opponent is a pretty large nerf.

Why not just make it so rage potion can only target your creatures.  I mean, it's intended mechanic is to give YOUR stuff +6, not to deal 6 damage.
Because lightning is 1  :aether for 5 damage. How is 3  :fire for 6 damage overpowered?

And making fire lance unable to target your opponent isn't a large nerf. I ask you, what decks, other than fire stall, utilize that ability? Furthermore, the change would also give it the ability to buff your own cards.

That's why I'm not even calling it a nerf. It's just a change.

Malduk

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131233#msg131233
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 07:09:40 pm »
Let me be the idiot that says that SoG IS the problem there. Comparing it to Electrocutor is wrong anology imo. Shards help ALWAYS. If that deck didnt have shards, there would be many counters to it.

Say you start hard on your opponent and take away chunk of his HP. He CCs your creatures and places Firewall. SoGs heal him up while you wait for new damage dealers. If SoGs werent there, most decks WOULD be able to finish the game pass Firewall. Small cheap creatures would be viable against that deck too, as they could be used to draw CC and make small bites on your opponents HP, while you gather quanta or cards to finish the game.

Shards forces you to constantly keep dealing damage. THAT is hard or impossible against creature and perma control :fire has. I read multiple times on this forum that SoGs are "only OP in combination with shields". Clearing the board is even better than having a shield.

Now about SoG nerf... I dont consider +1 cost much of a nerf at all. It is not hard to pay for shards anyway.
In decks that dont spam them, or that cant CC you to infinity, they may not seem much of a deal. People love them as they help grinding FGs and make some weak/fun decks viable through good stalling. But healing for 20-30 every turn IS a big deal. More so when combined with shield or heavy CC.

On the side note, I always considered both Explosion and Steal too cheap for what they do.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131235#msg131235
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 07:12:13 pm »
Just because cost to use ratio is balanced doesn't mean the card is balanced.  By that coin, a 16 aether card should be able to do 70 damage.  But that's not balanced at all.

I'm not saying rage potion is over powered, I'm saying it's the card that should be changed.  And I think making it only able to target your own creatures would make players use it as intended, as a buff, not a damage spell.

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131243#msg131243
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 07:21:22 pm »
The only way a stall beats out a rush deck is with healing to recoup damage while you stratecically eliminate their creatures.  I have life and air stalls that are also very potent stall decks due to the amount of CC they can produce (carapace and eagle eye/thunderstorm).  However, the the backbone of each of these decks is 6 SoG that allow you to mitigate damage while the stall gets everything in place and eliminates enemy creatures.  While these dacks can function without SoG, they would not be nearly as effective and would need another alternative for healing.

Malduk

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131249#msg131249
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 07:33:07 pm »
The only way a stall beats out a rush deck is with healing to recoup damage while you stratecically eliminate their creatures.  I have life and air stalls that are also very potent stall decks due to the amount of CC they can produce (carapace and eagle eye/thunderstorm).  However, the the backbone of each of these decks is 6 SoG that allow you to mitigate damage while the stall gets everything in place and eliminates enemy creatures.  While these dacks can function without SoG, they would not be nearly as effective and would need another alternative for healing.
Very true. I'm all for new stall cards. But when you make passive healing card that can be used by any element, its pretty obvious that there will be an imbalanced combination.
Main (only?) weakness fire has is lack of damage mitigation. Damage and destruction are signatures of that element. When you combine it with easy and cheap healing, you get "OP deck".

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131256#msg131256
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 07:37:52 pm »
Very true. I'm all for new stall cards. But when you make passive healing card that can be used by any element, its pretty obvious that there will be an imbalanced combination.
Main (only?) weakness fire has is lack of damage mitigation. Damage and destruction are signatures of that element. When you combine it with easy and cheap healing, you get "OP deck".
I'm actually sad that the dune scorpion was changed, because that card was a great counter to the fire stall.  The best way to solve the fire stall is by comming up with new cards that are strong versus fire stall.

Edit: if fire stall is that big of a problem, cards with high hp and reflective shields can put a good hamper on this deck.

A few exist currently in different degrees of success:
A mirror shield, and some light dragons, archangels and blessings counter the basic strategy, but are slow
Jade shield and Jade Dragons also could make a (probably not so successful) counter deck.
An earth deck with a PA'd pulvy and Basalt dragons could work too.

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131291#msg131291
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 08:22:23 pm »
Let me be the idiot that says that SoG IS the problem there. Comparing it to Electrocutor is wrong anology imo. Shards help ALWAYS. If that deck didnt have shards, there would be many counters to it.
Really? I don't think so, but that's not the point.

Say you start hard on your opponent and take away chunk of his HP. He CCs your creatures and places Firewall. SoGs heal him up while you wait for new damage dealers. If SoGs werent there, most decks WOULD be able to finish the game pass Firewall. Small cheap creatures would be viable against that deck too, as they could be used to draw CC and make small bites on your opponents HP, while you gather quanta or cards to finish the game.
No they wouldn't. You have 12 control cards. You'll almost always have a counter to whatever creature they play. Unless the total attack of their creatures (the damage they deal in 1 turn) is greater than 100, you don't need any sogs at all. Using fire stall, most of the time your sogs are useless and you're at 100 health. Barring a bad draw, you shouldn't lose. You would even be able to let a 5 attack creature or so go through if necessary anyway, since you'll be winning the damage race with fahenheit + leftover lances.


But none of that matters.


If you re-read my topic, specifically the part about SoG, you'll realize I addressed this:
SoG still serves the exact purpose you just mentioned. Even at costing 3, even if it was reduced to 4 hp/turn AND 3 cost.

Basically, you keep talking about how "if SoG wasn't in the deck..." the problem is that unless SoG is removed from the game, SoGs will be in the deck. So your entire argument fails, since even a further SoG nerf wouldn't make it unviable for fire stall. And if we do nerf it to the point fire stall can't use it, then no other deck will be able to use it either, which is by no means a good thing. I like decks like pharaoh decks, flying eagle eyes, and such to be viable.

Like my electrocutor example, if electrocutor costed 2 aether to use the ability and originally costed 4 aether, would Rol/Hope stop using it? No.

Shards forces you to constantly keep dealing damage. THAT is hard or impossible against creature and perma control :fire has. I read multiple times on this forum that SoGs are "only OP in combination with shields". Clearing the board is even better than having a shield.
Yes, and without the shards, it forces you to deal 100 damage, which is hard/impossible too.

Now about SoG nerf... I dont consider +1 cost much of a nerf at all. It is not hard to pay for shards anyway.
In decks that dont spam them, or that cant CC you to infinity, they may not seem much of a deal. People love them as they help grinding FGs and make some weak/fun decks viable through good stalling. But healing for 20-30 every turn IS a big deal. More so when combined with shield or heavy CC.
+1 cost is about the maximum nerf you can give (I guess you could make it heal only 4 too) without a nerf akin to sundial.

Here's my basic reasoning for nerfing sog:
Was sundial before nerf more powerful than sog is now? Yes.
Was sundial nerfed to half power? Yes.
Would nerfing sog to 3 healing, or 6 cost be nerfing it to half power? Yes.
An overpowered card got nerfed a great amount. Should we nerf another card that wasn't as powerful by the same amount? No.

Healing 20-30 every turn isn't a big deal. If you've played 4-6 sogs, you've drawn through your entire deck (likely). A life rush, which focuses on FAST damage more so than long term power, will deal 50 damage. A destroyer/dragon cremation deck can deal 100+ endgame.

Granted, it is indeed magnified when combined with a shield/CC.

On the side note, I always considered both Explosion and Steal too cheap for what they do.
Alright. I won't comment on that, since nobodys arguing it's explosion that makes it so powerful :) .

PuppyChow

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131297#msg131297
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 08:34:19 pm »
Quote
Just because cost to use ratio is balanced doesn't mean the card is balanced.  By that coin, a 16 aether card should be able to do 70 damage.  But that's not balanced at all.

I'm not saying rage potion is over powered, I'm saying it's the card that should be changed.  And I think making it only able to target your own creatures would make players use it as intended, as a buff, not a damage spell.
You're right about cost to use ratio being balanced doesn't mean the card being balanced. However, saying the 3  :fire for 6 damage is stronger than the 1  :aether for 5 damage is like saying a 6/6 for 9 quanta is better than a 5/6 for 6 quanta.

So you say rage potion isn't OP, but you want to nerf it? That makes no sense.

Quote
The only way a stall beats out a rush deck is with healing to recoup damage while you stratecically eliminate their creatures.  I have life and air stalls that are also very potent stall decks due to the amount of CC they can produce (carapace and eagle eye/thunderstorm).  However, the the backbone of each of these decks is 6 SoG that allow you to mitigate damage while the stall gets everything in place and eliminates enemy creatures.  While these dacks can function without SoG, they would not be nearly as effective and would need another alternative for healing.
Really? Are you sure?

With fire stall it's different. Fire stall relies on killing creatures as they're played, not whittling down their creatures over time like flying eagle eyes and carapace.

For instance, let's say I play two elite chargers.

Fire stall: I kill them both next turn with rage elixirs.
Flying EE: I eventually kill them both, taking two turns each.

There's a large difference. The former has no need of sogs (you only took 14 damage), the latter does (you took 28 damage).

Very true. I'm all for new stall cards. But when you make passive healing card that can be used by any element, its pretty obvious that there will be an imbalanced combination.
Main (only?) weakness fire has is lack of damage mitigation. Damage and destruction are signatures of that element. When you combine it with easy and cheap healing, you get "OP deck".
I'm actually sad that the dune scorpion was changed, because that card was a great counter to the fire stall.  The best way to solve the fire stall is by comming up with new cards that are strong versus fire stall.

Edit: if fire stall is that big of a problem, cards with high hp and reflective shields can put a good hamper on this deck.

A few exist currently in different degrees of success:
A mirror shield, and some light dragons, archangels and blessings counter the basic strategy, but are slow
Jade shield and Jade Dragons also could make a (probably not so successful) counter deck.
An earth deck with a PA'd pulvy and Basalt dragons could work too.
Yes, but all those are specific counters. They wouldn't work against a lot of other decks. Decks that are good normally but also counter fire stall are few and far between.

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131317#msg131317
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 08:57:19 pm »
I have an idea to help against fire stall without nerfing fire stall.  Make Jade shield and Mirror shield reflect farenheits extra damage and this deck could only win by a possible deck out.  If farenheit is out before the shield, the firestall would be so hosed with all that damage over time.

Isn't hammers 1 extra damage already reflected by these two shields and the extra damae is an effect.

guolin

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Re: Solving Fire Stall https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=10653.msg131337#msg131337
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2010, 09:13:52 pm »
I have an idea to help against fire stall without nerfing fire stall.  Make Jade shield and Mirror shield reflect farenheits extra damage and this deck could only win by a possible deck out.  If farenheit is out before the shield, the firestall would be so hosed with all that damage over time.
Explosion on your own Fahrenheit?

I think it should just reflect 50%...otherwise, GG for the Fire Staller if there is no way to win by deck out.

 

blarg: