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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538829#msg538829
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 08:21:07 pm »
Your definition of minor (can't suggest Firefly produce  :fire but can suggest Photons be 20|20s) is not a descriptor of the magnitude of the suggestion.

Usually
+1/-1 casting cost/attack/activation cost is not a Minor nerf/buff
+2/-2 is certainly not minor
You are correct. I will change the title to something like "Simple statistics nerfs/buffs"

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538833#msg538833
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 09:16:11 pm »
In wiki order
Spoiler for Light, Darkness and Air:
:light
Guardian Angel
3|6 for 3 :light rather than 1|6 for 3 :light

 :darkness
Black Dragon
10|6 for 10 :darkness rather than 10|5 for 10 :darkness (see Emerald Dragon)

Parasite
3|1 for 2 :darkness rather than 1|1 for 2 :darkness
Bloodsucker
3|1 for 1 :darkness rather than 3|1 for 2 :darkness

Gargoyle
4 :darkness casting cost and  :earth :earth activation cost rather than 5 :darkness casting cost and  :earth activation cost

Vampire Stiletto
2 :darkness casting cost rather than 1 :darkness casting cost (See Drudic)

 :air
Damselfly
2|1 Gen  :air for 1 :air rather than 2|1 Gen  :air for 0 (See Ray of Light)

Azure Dragon
9|6 for 9 :air rather than 9|6 for 10 :air

Fog Shield
3 :air|2 :air casting cost rather than 2 :air|1 :air casting cost
Spoiler for Earth and Gravity:
:earth
Antlion
2|3 Burrow for 1 :earth rather than 2|3 Burrow for 2 :earth

Hematite Golem
3|5 for 3 :earth rather than 4|6 for 4 :earth (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)
Steel Golem
4|8 for 3 :earth rather than 6|9 for 4 :earth (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)

Graboid
 :time :time activation cost rather than  :time activation cost

Shrieker
8|3 for 7 :earth rather than 8|3 for 8 :earth

 :gravity
Elite Charger
7|5 Momentum for 6 :gravity rather than 7|5 Momentum for 5 :gravity

Graviton Mercenary
4|6 for 4 :gravity rather than 3|5 for 4 :gravity (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)
Graviton Guard
5|9 for 4 :gravity rather than 3|5 for 3 :gravity (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)

Graviton Fire Eater
0|6 Ablaze for 2 :gravity rather than 0|5 Ablaze for 2 :gravity
Spoiler for Entropy, Water, Life, Death and Aether:
:entropy
Abomination
5|5 for 4 :entropy rather than 5|5 for 5 :entropy
Micro Abomination
2|3 for 0 rathern than 2|4 for 1 :entropy

Purple Dragon
10|6 for 10 :entropy rather than 10|5 for 10 :entropy (same as black dragon gets)
Amethyst Dragon
11|6 for 11 :entropy rather than 12|6 for 11 :entropy (see black dragon)

Werewolf
1 :entropy casting cost and  :darkness :darkness activation cost rather than 2 :entropy casting cost and  :darkness activation cost

 :water
Blue Crawler
4|3 for 3 :water rather than 3|3 for 3 :water

Ice Dragon
9|6 for 9 :water rather than 9|6 for 10 :water (same as Azure Dragon)
Arctic Dragon
13|4 for 12 :water rather than 13|5 for 11 :water (see Black Dragon)

Pufferfish
3|4 Venom for 4 :water rather than 3|5 Venom for 5 :water (See Scorpion)

Ulitharid
2 :water casting cost rather than 3 :water casting cost (See mindflayer)

 :life
Jade Dragon
12|9 for 13 :life rather than 12|9 for 12 :life (See Obsidian Dragon)

Jade Staff
3 attack for 1 :life rather than 4 attack for 2 :life

 :death
Flesh Spider
4|3 Web for 3 :death rather than 3|3 Web for 3 :death [until duo Web is more valuable]

Skeleton
0 casting cost rather than 1 :death casting cost

 :aether
Elite Immortal
6|4 Immaterial rather than 5|4 Immaterial (see Elite Phase Dragon)

Edit: Shrieker hp had a typo.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:23:51 am by OldTrees »
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538838#msg538838
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 09:46:46 pm »
In wiki order
Spoiler for Light, Darkness and Air:
:light
Guardian Angel
3|6 for 3 :light rather than 1|6 for 3 :light
I know I'm still using the old old version of creature calculation, but 3|6 should be 4 :underworld shouldn't it? 3 atk + 1 for high hp
 :darkness
Black Dragon
10|6 for 10 :darkness rather than 10|5 for 10 :darkness (see Emerald Dragon)

Parasite
3|1 for 2 :darkness rather than 1|1 for 2 :darkness
Bloodsucker
3|1 for 1 :darkness rather than 3|1 for 2 :darkness
I have considered doing this for parasite and bloodsucker, but now is it too powerful with fractal? With one eclipse these become giant frogs for half the cost
Gargoyle
4 :darkness casting cost and  :earth :earth activation cost rather than 5 :darkness casting cost and  :earth activation cost

Vampire Stiletto
2 :darkness casting cost rather than 1 :darkness casting cost (See Drudic)

 :air
Damselfly
2|1 Gen  :air for 1 :air rather than 2|1 Gen  :air for 0 (See Ray of Light)

Azure Dragon
9|6 for 9 :air rather than 9|6 for 10 :air
9atk + 1 cost for high hp? This card is pretty UP for 10 :air though.
Fog Shield
3 :air|2 :air casting cost rather than 2 :air|1 :air casting cost
Spoiler for Earth and Gravity:
:earth
Antlion
2|3 Burrow for 1 :earth rather than 2|3 Burrow for 2 :earth

Hematite Golem
3|5 for 3 :earth rather than 4|6 for 4 :earth (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)
Steel Golem
4|8 for 3 :earth rather than 6|9 for 4 :earth (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)

Graboid
 :time :time activation cost rather than  :time activation cost
Hasn't it been shown that doubling Evolve's cost makes it a bit too weak? I mean, 2 :time (duo) is about 3 :earth, so 5 :earth + 1 turn for a shrieker
Shrieker
8|4 for 7 :earth rather than 8|4 for 8 :earth
Unupped shrieker has 3hp. Did you have a typo here? Giving shrieker 4hp would actually be quite a buff for shrieker since in the unupped meta, shriekers with 3hp are fragile
 :gravity
Elite Charger
7|5 Momentum for 6 :gravity rather than 7|5 Momentum for 5 :gravity
Why not 6|5 momentum for 5 :gravity?
Graviton Mercenary
4|6 for 4 :gravity rather than 3|5 for 4 :gravity (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)
Graviton Guard
5|9 for 4 :gravity rather than 3|5 for 3 :gravity (switching Gravity warriors and the Earth golems)

Graviton Fire Eater
0|6 Ablaze for 2 :gravity rather than 0|5 Ablaze for 2 :gravity
Spoiler for Entropy, Water, Life, Death and Aether:
:entropy
Abomination
5|5 for 4 :entropy rather than 5|5 for 5 :entropy
Why? 5 attack and 5 hp feels it should be worth 5 :underworld imo
Micro Abomination
2|3 for 0 rathern than 2|4 for 1 :entropy
A free creature? It'd change the role of micro completely, but I don't see it being OP
Purple Dragon
10|6 for 10 :entropy rather than 10|5 for 10 :entropy (same as black dragon gets)
Amethyst Dragon
11|6 for 11 :entropy rather than 12|6 for 11 :entropy (see black dragon)

Werewolf
1 :entropy casting cost and  :darkness :darkness activation cost rather than 2 :entropy casting cost and  :darkness activation cost

 :water
Blue Crawler
4|3 for 3 :water rather than 3|3 for 3 :water

Ice Dragon
9|6 for 9 :water rather than 9|6 for 10 :water (same as Azure Dragon)
Arctic Dragon
13|4 for 12 :water rather than 13|5 for 11 :water (see Black Dragon)

Pufferfish
3|6 Venom for 5 :water rather than 3|5 Venom for 5 :water (See Scorpion)
I don't think giving pufferfish 1 extra hp will make it more used or balanced. Sure, it gets more defense, but the high cost and time it takes for venom to catch up is just off-putting
Ulitharid
2 :water casting cost rather than 3 :water casting cost (See mindflayer)

 :life
Jade Dragon
12|9 for 13 :life rather than 12|9 for 12 :life (See Obsidian Dragon)

Jade Staff
3 attack for 1 :life rather than 4 attack for 2 :life
That is even more extreme than my suggestion. As absol has already raised the point, is 3atk staff too good?
 :death
Flesh Spider
4|3 Web for 3 :death rather than 3|3 Web for 3 :death [until duo Web is more valuable]

Skeleton
0 casting cost rather than 1 :death casting cost

 :aether
Elite Immortal
6|4 Immaterial rather than 5|4 Immaterial (see Elite Phase Dragon)
Thanks for your input OT. I've put my comments in yellow.

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538848#msg538848
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 10:15:15 pm »
In wiki order
Spoiler for Light, Darkness and Air:
:light
Guardian Angel
3|6 for 3 :light rather than 1|6 for 3 :light
I know I'm still using the old old version of creature calculation, but 3|6 should be 4 :underworld shouldn't it? 3 atk + 1 for high hp
My current version assumes Photon is the basis for creatures. Effectively creatures cost 1 less than the old calcuation.
 :darkness
Parasite
3|1 for 2 :darkness rather than 1|1 for 2 :darkness
Bloodsucker
3|1 for 1 :darkness rather than 3|1 for 2 :darkness
I have considered doing this for parasite and bloodsucker, but now is it too powerful with fractal? With one eclipse these become giant frogs for half the cost
Eclipse Bloodsuckers vs Adrenaline Frogs. This Bloodsucker might be OP but is more likely to be balanced.
 :air
Azure Dragon
9|6 for 9 :air rather than 9|6 for 10 :air
9atk + 1 cost for high hp? This card is pretty UP for 10 :air though.
Photon +8 attack + 1 hp tier
Spoiler for Earth and Gravity:
:earth
Graboid
 :time :time activation cost rather than  :time activation cost
Hasn't it been shown that doubling Evolve's cost makes it a bit too weak? I mean, 2 :time (duo) is about 3 :earth, so 5 :earth + 1 turn for a shrieker
Only if the evolved shrieker burrows or if the shrieker card is nerfed. majofa has an alternate burrow effect that fixes the remaining problem
Shrieker
8|3 for 7 :earth rather than 8|3 for 8 :earth
Unupped shrieker has 3hp. Did you have a typo here? Giving shrieker 4hp would actually be quite a buff for shrieker since in the unupped meta, shriekers with 3hp are fragile
typo fixed
 :gravity
Elite Charger
7|5 Momentum for 6 :gravity rather than 7|5 Momentum for 5 :gravity
Why not 6|5 momentum for 5 :gravity?
Increase the difference between Charger and Psion
Spoiler for Entropy, Water, Life, Death and Aether:
:entropy
Abomination
5|5 for 4 :entropy rather than 5|5 for 5 :entropy
Why? 5 attack and 5 hp feels it should be worth 5 :underworld imo
I put 5hp at the upper bound of the lowest hp tier. This might be a mistake. 5|3 would certainly cost 4.
Micro Abomination
2|3 for 0 rathern than 2|4 for 1 :entropy
A free creature? It'd change the role of micro completely, but I don't see it being OP
I moved the 2 attack free creature from Air to Entropy

 :water
Pufferfish
3|6 Venom for 5 :water rather than 3|5 Venom for 5 :water (See Scorpion)
I don't think giving pufferfish 1 extra hp will make it more used or balanced. Sure, it gets more defense, but the high cost and time it takes for venom to catch up is just off-putting
This may be true. However making it OP relative to Scorpions is not the answer either. If you were using Scorpion as a basis for Pufferfish, what would you come up with?

 :life
Jade Staff
3 attack for 1 :life rather than 4 attack for 2 :life
That is even more extreme than my suggestion. As absol has already raised the point, is 3atk staff too good?
No, it is not too good. Even in the Flying Adrenal combo it is not an abnormal upgrade.
Thanks for your input OT. I've put my comments in yellow.
I replied in Orange and cut out the changes not being discussed.
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538853#msg538853
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 10:25:57 pm »
Ah photon. You are using photon as balancing. I mostly still used the old one with cost starting at attack, seeing hp, and then working from there. I have always felt and treated photon as a special case card that was free and had 1|1 (Skeleton has undead ability and feels more thematic with 1 :underworld).

Abomination. 5|3 could probably warrant a 4 :underworld cost, but 5|5 would be 5 :underworld. 5 attack, and decent resilience.

Scorpion = 2|2 + poison. 2|2 = 2 cost, upgrade is -1, so poison is a +2 cost.
Pufferfish with 3|5 is 3 cost, adding poison would make it 5 :water. With the upgrade bonus, I'd say around 3-4 :water.

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538864#msg538864
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 11:29:56 pm »
Ah photon. You are using photon as balancing. I mostly still used the old one with cost starting at attack, seeing hp, and then working from there. I have always felt and treated photon as a special case card that was free and had 1|1 (Skeleton has undead ability and feels more thematic with 1 :underworld).

Abomination. 5|3 could probably warrant a 4 :underworld cost, but 5|5 would be 5 :underworld. 5 attack, and decent resilience.
Good points. I personally am not convinced but there is a reasonable chance for either to be right.

Scorpion = 2|2 + poison. 2|2 = 2 cost, upgrade is -1, so poison is a +2 cost.
Pufferfish with 3|5 is 3 cost, adding poison would make it 5 :water. With the upgrade bonus, I'd say around 3-4 :water.
So
Scorpion [3 :life cost]
+1atk [+1 cost]
2hp->5hp [you argue above this is a +1 cost]
So 5 :water as the cost
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 11:32:03 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline furballdnTopic starter

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538867#msg538867
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 11:47:41 pm »
I seem to have contradicted myself. Your logic is correct. I hope you do not mind if I back up a bit and change some of what I said above.

When I look at hp, I see anything above 5 as in another tier and (+1). Between 2 and 5, there is a gap that is not quite a +1 cost, but also not a +0 cost either.

When I used my formula of finding cost, 5|5 would be 5 :underworld. a 5|3 should probably cost 5 :underworld as well, but in the case of abomination, there could be slight shifts and it ends up costing cheaper (Toadfish is 6|3 and costs 5 :underworld as opposed to 6 :underworld perhaps to give that element a good mid range hitter and some offense). Anyways, a 5|5 would be a "solid" 5 :underworld, while a 5|3 is slightly less than exactly 5.

If we say poison is +2, and puffer has 3 atk, it would be a 5|5 creature, a "solid" 5. However, this does not factor in the upgrade cost, so even if the upgrade cost is -1, it should at least be 4 :water.

(Scorpion has 2atk + 2poison - 1upgrade = 3. The 2hp doesn't change the cost for that.)

I apologize in advance if this post's arguments are unclear, or has faulty logic (I hope not).

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538880#msg538880
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2012, 12:21:38 am »
I seem to have contradicted myself. Your logic is correct. I hope you do not mind if I back up a bit and change some of what I said above.

When I look at hp, I see anything above 5 as in another tier and (+1). Between 2 and 5, there is a gap that is not quite a +1 cost, but also not a +0 cost either.

When I used my formula of finding cost, 5|5 would be 5 :underworld. a 5|3 should probably cost 5 :underworld as well, but in the case of abomination, there could be slight shifts and it ends up costing cheaper (Toadfish is 6|3 and costs 5 :underworld as opposed to 6 :underworld perhaps to give that element a good mid range hitter and some offense). Anyways, a 5|5 would be a "solid" 5 :underworld, while a 5|3 is slightly less than exactly 5.

If we say poison is +2, and puffer has 3 atk, it would be a 5|5 creature, a "solid" 5. However, this does not factor in the upgrade cost, so even if the upgrade cost is -1, it should at least be 4 :water.

(Scorpion has 2atk + 2poison - 1upgrade = 3. The 2hp doesn't change the cost for that.)

I apologize in advance if this post's arguments are unclear, or has faulty logic (I hope not).
The yellow is irrelevant, all cards are to be balanced. 6|3 costs 5 (Toadfish) and 5|3 cost 4 (Mummy).
My current equation rounds 5|3 and 5|5 to the same cost. This cost is 1 less than it was in my previous equation. (Some have argued that the rounding should result differently for 3 and 5hp.)

Scorpion
2|2 Venom for 3 :life + 1 card + 1 upgrade
2 (atk) + X (enabled venom) + 0 (2hp) = 3 :life + 1 card + 1 upgrade
3 (atk) + X (enabled venom) + 0 (2hp) = 4 :life + 1 card + 1 upgrade
3 (atk) + X (enabled venom) + 0 (5hp) = 4 :water + 1 card + 1 upgrade

PS: Enabled venom value calculation
2 (atk) + X (enabled venom) + 0 (2hp) = 3 :life + 1 card + 1 upgrade
-Photon
1 (atk) + X (enabled venom) = 3 :underworld + 1 upgrade
-1 atk upgrade (what Scorpion recieved)
X (enabled venom) = 3 :underworld

I have added your Pufferfish suggestion to my list. (albeit with 4hp to preempt the rounding dispute)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:23:33 am by OldTrees »
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Offline meowww

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Re: Minor nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538887#msg538887
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2012, 12:51:34 am »
:aether
Immortal Attack/HP raise to 5/3 from 4/3.
Elite Immortal cost reduce to 6 :aether from 7, Attack/HP raise to 6/4 from 5/4.

They are really expensive, Aether always need more muscle.
Immortal seems balanced to me. The immortality is a 1.5* multiplier factor.

4atk * 1.5 = 6 cost.
5atk * 1.5 = 7.5 cost. With upgrade bonus, I would say upped immortal should cost 6 :aether.

Phase Dragon
8atk * 1.5 +1 for high hp = 13 cost.
10atk * 1.5 + 1 for high hp -2 upgrade =14 cost.

Aether has psions and phase recluse for muscle and damage.
Phase dragon is fine.

By doing the maths, now you getting close to the point yourself.
If you take a look at other elements, you will find that almost all "Minor" cards in the same color come with better quanta effectiveness.

That is why:
The cost of Immortal is
6 cost + 1 card for 4 damage.

And the cost of Dragon is
13 cost + 1 card for 8 damage.

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538888#msg538888
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2012, 12:53:18 am »
True, other cards come with better quanta effectiveness, but immortal and phase dragon are untargettable. Quite a big increase to cost (1.5*atk).

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538891#msg538891
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2012, 01:30:51 am »
True, other cards come with better quanta effectiveness, but immortal and phase dragon are untargettable. Quite a big increase to cost (1.5*atk).
But that is not the reason this "Minor" muscle card don't have the obvious effectiveness to make up a card slot in exchange of the Dragon.

For Aether
Phase Dragon | Immortal
1.65/atk | 1.5/atk
A 10% increase of effectiveness, that is only 1 quanta different as result.

A few example of muscle cards in other elements, skipped those aren't muscle, almost all "Minor" one have an obvious difference:

Golden Dragon | Pegasus
1.2/atk  | 1.33/atk, Dive

Black Dragon | Minor Vampire | Gargoyle
1/atk | 1.5/atk, Vampire | 1/atk, Stone form

Azure Dragon | Wyrm | Firefly
1.11/atk | 1.33/atk, Dive | 1/atk, Bioluminescence

Stone Dragon | Antlion
1.25/atk  | 1/atk, Burrow

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Re: Simple statistic nerfs/buffs https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43231.msg538892#msg538892
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2012, 01:38:07 am »
Generally to determine "efficiency" of a card, it's atk/cost, not the other way around.

I don't really get your definition of "muscle" cards, but I assume you mean just as regular hitters.
Psion and phase spider both function as aether's lower to mid range hitters. (Psion has a 1 atk/cost and spider has a 4/3)

Immortals and phase dragons are only used because they are much more defensive and aren't afraid of control. Immortal is not an efficient attacker and is not ment to be one. It is supposed to fit an almost specialized role as a more expensive but sturdy lowmidrange hitter.

 

anything
blarg: