SHARE Major abilitys, and make all Elements Standalone

[loran]

Hello, this game is great but have a majors problems i will try to explain.
Sorry for my stranges sentences, but I'm not from english speakers country.

SHARE "Draw card Ability".

The only card making draw anothers cards is "golden hourglass" of "Time" cardsset.
Then, The ElementsTheGame big problem is the same problem than anothers games like it, with the rule :
"at beginning of the turn, draw one card" (and only one).

So, majority of games without "card drawing advantage" stalls.

ElementsTheGame entire game is a stalling game.
With no card in hand, it's borring, and player can only wait to draw one card per turn.

SO ElementsTheGame need others cards with "draw card ability", and in various Elements cardsets.
It's also boring to give to only one cardset the card draw effect.
But by doing that, you need to keep "flavor" of Elements.

Let's say : "Time" is the better Elements for draw capacitys. It have best "card draw" effects.
But anothers Elements must have "draw effect" according to their flavor.

Example :
Life get card like this : "Draw a card for Each creature you control"
Water get card like : "Draw a card for each 10 water quanta you have"

Most of Elements should have at least ONE draw card. Maybe the cards will be not as good as the draw cards of time elements, but the game really need it.


SHARE "Gain HP Ability".

So, it's not the effect the most important about making flavor of a Elements, it's the way how work the effect.
Exemple :
Death can get a card with capacity "Each time a creature is killed, gain 4 HP" (it's not the same way than the "wampires" of darkness).
So "GAIN life capacity" can also be sprayed in more various elements.


SHARE "Deal with permanents Ability".

After that, bests card able to deal with permanents are
- Deflagration (fire)
- Steal (darkness)
Other more Elements needs cards able to deals with permanents.
Not as good as "steal" and "deflagration", and not in the same way.
Exemple :
Time get card named "lost in the future" and with effect : "Shuffle target permanent in his owner deck"

SHARE "Others Ability" and "Standalone" Elements.

So the same is with "deal with creatures", etc...

The idea is making ALL Elements standalone and able to deal with all threats BUT :
- by differents ways (a way that respect the element flavor)
- by different power level (like I explained, some elements are strongers than anothers for somes capacitys, time is the best with "draw card", fire is best with direct damage, and so on)

Thanks

[catalyzeme]

I think you are mistaken in your premise that each element needs its weaknesses patched up to stand alone. That would trivialize choosing different elements altogether, if every element could do everything. Each element already stands alone, and each element has good synergies with other elements where they can eliminate some of their weaknesses.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Each element has their own speciality, although some elements are more flexible than others, they can all be used by themselves. If you wish to make a balanced deck, then just add cards from different elements, Nobody is forcing anyone to go with just one element, and a lot of duos can work great.

In fact, I believe elements is about finding the combinations of elements that fit you best, it's not about focussing on just one element, and if you really want creature/permanent control with an element like Life you throw in some Fire, and likewise, if you wish to add some healing to Fire, add Life. Some elements are good on their own, others have good synergies. Just because some elements are capable of exelling on their own, doesn't mean any element has to.

This all is just my opinion of course, but I'm convinced I'm not the only one to think of elements like this.

[Rooftrellen]

I do think that the elements need some balancing like this.

I don't think it should all come at the same cost or in the same way, but all the elements should have some ability to deal with everything.

That's not to say all elements should be able to do CC like fire.  Certainly not.

I think most of your examples are pretty well spot on, as well.

It would not trivialize choosing an element.  It would just make choosing an element (or two, or three) possible.  Rainbows would still have the advantage of variety, while decks around fewer elements would have a stronger theme, normally.

That is good for the game.  I consider it quite bad right now that its almost impossible to make a FG killing deck out of one or two elements, and it requires specific elements (anyone got a mono aether deck that does well, even decently, against FG's?)

Balancing out the elements with regards to just having the mechanic in some way, would help more kinds of decks better.  Variety is good.

[RagingAlien]

First: Being foreign is no excuse for bad english. For example, me and the guy above me.

Second: Your ideas for the cards that would work in other elements are all OP. actually, much more powerful than the original ones.

Third: what the first 2 replies said.

[pepokish]

First of all, welcome to the forum, Ioran!  (:

Now, this discussion has been brought up over and over again, so I have to admit that I came to this thread expecting more of the same.  However, I think you have brought a new light to the discussion, and I really like that.  I think we're so used to seeing arguments of "all elements should be absolutely 100% the same and equal" that some might miss your entire point -- which is that elements can retain unique characteristics while still being relatively equal in terms of play.  Elements can be unique and different, and can have synergies, while also being strong and independent on their own.

When two players face each other in PVP, it should be playstyle and deck building skills which determine the outcome of the match -- not the element they chose.  Each element should remain unique (otherwise, there would be no point in having seperate elements at all, obviously), yet each element should be able to stand on its own to some degree. 

The elements have been getting closer and closer to equal footing, as time goes on.  Not so long ago, there were very large gaps between the 'weak' elements and the 'strong' elements. 

In short: No, we shouldn't have a "Rain of Fire" card re-named and re-themed for every single element.  But all or most of the elements can have formidable creature control, permanent control, etc -- even if it isn't as good as another given element, it should be available.

That said, I really think this is something that Zanz is already working toward.  As new cards are added, they generally help buff up the elements once considered weak (perfect example: Adrenaline for Life, which was once an extremely neglected element).  Basically, I really think that the only way to balance out the game is to have more cards -- and this is already slowly getting worked on. 

Anyway, I think you have quite a few nice ideas, and perhaps you'd like to try filling a few of them out a bit and presenting them to the community as solid card ideas?  (:

Also, an alien, I don't mean to make a big deal or anything, but please don't come down on someone for having less-than-perfect English skills, especially when they make a point to apologize for it beforehand.  Being a non-native speaker IS an excuse, because everyone has to start somewhere (and believe it or not, there are even more viable excuses than that).  Please try to have a bit of empathy and be kind.  (:

[loran]

Hello again, and thanks for these replys.

It seems there is missunderstanding, but pepokish seems have understood what is the proposal, because he say

I think we're so used to seeing arguments of "all elements should be absolutely 100% the same and equal" that some might miss your entire point

So I will clarify my thougth :
- It's not question to make all elements the same, not at all !
- cards with some capacity that are not the main flavor of the element have less powered, and are differents, according to their flavor.

I play magic the gathering since many years, and created +1000 cards for this game, in new extensions, and I had made a big work to balance theses standalone, and give a minimal flexibility.
At the beginning (in 1993-94), magic was like Elements : no card drawing except in blue color, and the same for others capacitys, each color was more specialized.
But after many years, developpers add to the game many new cards and give to some colors alternative ways to do things, and it was really a good adding to the game.

Example : Red (Fire in elements) or Black (Death or Darkness) have "drawing cards", but less powerfull than blue (time), and working in another way.

In Magic - Pay 4 black mana : "Draw 3 cards and loose 3 HP".

In Element it could be - Pay 6 Death quantum : "Draw 3 cards and loose 9 HP".
I'm not sure if it's a balanced card, but it's just to show the way how it work.


It's question to make alternative cards.
If a player dont want to use "Time", he should get alternative ways to draw cards, maybe less powerfull, and with others drawback.

But maybe, my proposal is not for now, and have to wait that Elements become a bigger game, with many more cards, and then, these alternative abilitys in others Elements will become a real need.

[Rooftrellen]

Sorry, an alien, I am actually america, and struggle with Portuguese    Native English speaker here.

At any rate, I think examples of cards can stand without needing to be balanced, they are just examples for what can be done, not something that time has been put into to make sure its right.

If I may take an example of a game mechanic that has been added to new elements recently to show how it can make things interesting...Dune scorpion.

Time...with poison?  Seems wrong.  Death, yes!  Life...ok, it had that shield already.  Time, though?  But how well does it work?  The answer is...beautifully!  Poison is a pretty simple way to do damage in the game, allowing damage without the use of the creature staying on the field, but the dune scorpion works perfectly, not only as a rather powerful poison causing creature, but to work WITH time's existing theme.

They "slow down time" by forcing your opponent to play fewer cards, or take increasing poison damage.  But time also can reverse time for the enemy, or speed it up for himself.  The card has perfect synergy with both of these, since the scorpion needs another card to attack, and cards going back to the deck force them to be replayed, making for more poison.

How awesome is that time can get a poison mechanic that fits perfectly with everything else?  I can't imagine poison as part of a time card would have gotten much support before the addition of the scorpions (and it fits much better than the discard from the hand, with the current cards surrounding it).

Now, with that in mind, we can come up with ways for many elements to get some of those game mechanics that would seem perfectly natural.  Let's do something that seems to totally counter everything we know about elements, as it stands, death healing creatures.  How about we make a death card permanent, which, has an ability that can be activated for  , which will remove poison from the target creature and heal all of your creatures by 1.

This fits the theme of death, working with poisons and other deadly materials, and gives them the ability to heal creatures, something death currently lacks.  As someone that studied pharmacy, I also have to like how by diluting the poison, you get medicine...but maybe that is where the idea came from 

Is it balanced?  It doesn't matter, its just an example of how even when it seems terribly contrary, it can be done without doing something insane.

As for when its time to do this, I think, and hope, its something that can be done little by little.  There is no need to work on a whole host of these at once.  If one card that can heal a death player is added, then one card that will allow entropy to draw extra cards is added, then one card that lets aether destroy permanents is added, we end up at the end with the elements able to stand alone.

No reason to rush, but, at the same time, no reason the process can't start now (as if it hasn't started at least a bit already).

[Kuross]

I think it's safe to say the community of Elements will agree with me here: this game is not MtG.

That being said, there are many mechanics and aspects of Elements that share similar traits with MtG, but at the same time, the game needs to go in a different direction. To be blunt, if I wanted to play MtG, I'd play MtG. I don't want to play a game that is so alike to MtG that I might as well play MtG. I like that Elements is different from MtG and that it's creator and it's community want to continue growing Elements in a direction that is not MtG.

So, all things considered here, I'd say trying to fit Elements into MtG themes is not a direction for Elements to go. Just because card drawing mechanics are prevalent in MtG does not necessarily mean they should be, or will be, prevalent in Elements. The point of the game is that each Element is unique in some way and the Elemental's playing their "powers," or decks, should also be unique in some way as well. Sure, some aspects of the game may be shared by different elements, but each element should inherently have a domain separate from the others to some degree. Time just happens to have a foothold on drawing at the moment.

[DrunkDestroyer]

I agree 100% with your original post. But I also agree that it is being done.

Death now has a rushable creature even unupped (Mummy)
Entropy now has mass CC and permanent control (Pandemonium and Butterfly Effect)
Gravity now has denial and to a lesser extent, healing (Black Hole)
Aether now has methods of obtaining more cards (Mind Gate)
ect

The examples about the scopions stregnthening the elements seems false to me, as they need a buff to be able to attack.

However, there are differences between abilities that need to be shared (CC, PC) and abilities that don't (Anti-Deck out, Removing all poison)
Some things need to definetely stay unique, or semi- unique IMO, and not have multiple watered down counterparts.


(Just for future reference, On this forum CC means Creature control, PC means Permanent control)

[Mahon]

I agree with OP.

I also agree this is not, and shouldn't be MtG. However we also should learn from their mistakes.

Each element should have unique abilities. However they shouldn't be so great that other elements are at a disadvantage without them.

Good examples of unique abilities are things like  Freeze  Dive  Burrow. Yes some are more powerful than others but still none are so powerful that say a rush deck without a Dive mechanic is flat out slower.

Bad examples I think are Permanent control, Drawing, Life gain, Creature control.

I don't think every element needs every one of these abilities. However I do think at least half the elements have some form of these in different degrees. Perfect example is CC we have  Rewind,  Freeze,  Devour,  Drain Life,  Lightning,  Rain of Fire,  Antimatter. There are even more but I don't think I need to keep going.

Compare that to Drawing. We have  Hourglass,  Fractal and Mind Gate (does it in its unique way), and for argument purposes  has a chance to get drawing with Mutation but not reliable by any means.

It is possible to add other Mind Gate like effects to other elements that emulate drawing, but are unique and fit the flavor of the element.

This would also have a nice bonus of lowering out dependence on rainbows.

[OldTrees]

I agree that this is not mtg.

I also agree that the basic tactics (rush, stall, card advantage, creature control, permanent control) are important to include in each and every element.

However there are 2 thing to note about how these basic tactics are included.
1) All cards from an element must be consistent with that element. This means not simple copying cards across border. (this has been said above but was important enough to reiterate)

2) Each element is better at some things an worse at others. Some elements should be better at permanent removal than others. ( is better than ) This should be reflected in both how a element does something it is worse at and how efficiently it does so. I think many would agree that and  probably should have the best drawing cards in the game while  probably should have the worse drawing cards.