Shard "Minimizing"

[Captain Scibra]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoFre when it's not even OP? =/

I was mostly going with the flow on that one, but the others I see theoretical evidence that they better the card.

[rosutosefi]

Calculations are based on 4 SoFr's for easy calculation.

Evasion = Semi immaterial. In comparison to immateriality, it has its pros (still buffable with a wide range of spells) and cons (RoF and Thunderstorm). This is a huge thing. Quintessence costs 4|3, and blessing 3|3 buff costs 3|2. In comparison with nightfall, which costs 3|4 and gives 1|1 | 2|1, a spell spread on creatures theoretically has its effects diminished by 2/3. A buff comparable to quintessence (let's assume ~3|~2 cost) spread on air creatures should have 3 cards + ~9|~6 elemental cost.

Critical strike = 1.5x damage + shield bypass. Let's just assume airborne creatures have 6 damage on average (dragons, don't argue!). This has a value of 3 damage + shield bypass. In comparison with Chaos Power + Momentum, which is 2 cards +  +  for 4|4 + shield bypass, 100% critical strike should cost around 2 cards + 1 elemental cost. Spread it again (this time, on airborne creatures, which has a wider range compared to only  for Nightfall|Eclipse) and you get 6 cards + 3 elemental cost.

And a grand total of 9 cards + ~12|~9 elemental cost for 4 cards + 20|12 rainbow cost. Silly.And note that I was very forgiving on my calculations there.

[Cheesy111]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

[OldTrees]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

When people want to nerf 3 cards of a series they tend to want to nerf the series.

[furballdn]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

[OldTrees]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

Not entirely true. It will merely slow down a rush deck if the correct play is made by the rusher.

[furballdn]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

Not entirely true. It will merely slow down a rush deck if the correct play is made by the rusher.

Most rush decks don't carry CC, and even then, it's not that good to lightning down your own creatures. SoSac makes it worth it once 10 damage hits the field, and how many rush decks have less than 10 damage on the field? Even if your rush deck had 11 damage on the field, a single SoSac makes a net gain of +4 hp. 4 might not be a lot, but I've oversimplified the damage output of rush decks (I should probably get some evidence for that later), and 4 is already 36% of the total damage dissipated. In games, even half a turn can make all the difference, so the one with SoSac gets to live longer.

[Cheesy111]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

I would take you more seriously if you could point me to a single viable unupped deck that used SoSac.  I don't need a deck code, just some sort of vague basic description. 

Spoiler for Hidden:

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

Not entirely true. It will merely slow down a rush deck if the correct play is made by the rusher.

SoSac is one of the few cards that I genuinely think makes Elements more of a play-based game than a deckbuilding one.  It rewards careful play and punishes those who just play all the cards in their hand whenever they get the quanta.



EDIT: In reference to your last post, I am only talking about unupped SoSac.  While I doubt upped SoSac is much of a problem, I do not have nearly enough practical experience to judge.  Please also keep in mind that SoSac does not exist in a vacuum.  Without healing, all SoSacs in a deck are deadweight once you fall under 49HP.  SoSacs in a deck make almost all shields a poor choice, and so SoSac decks rarely have high DR or killing shields (as DR/killing shields reduce incoming healing(damage)).  SoSacs take up card space that could be used for more creatures, spells, permanents or quanta.  SoSacs take away all non-death quanta, hurting nearly every deck type.  Because of this multitude of problems, SoSac is not useful in a competitive unupped PvP environment.

[furballdn]

I'm talking about upped SoSa. Just splash a few into a mono death rush and watch it beat most other rushes.

[OldTrees]

Why do people feel the need to nerf SoSac when it's not even OP? =/

I say SoSac is OP in the fact that it shuts down every single rush deck that doesn't have purify or SoP.

Not entirely true. It will merely slow down a rush deck if the correct play is made by the rusher.

Most rush decks don't carry CC, and even then, it's not that good to lightning down your own creatures. SoSac makes it worth it once 10 damage hits the field, and how many rush decks have less than 10 damage on the field? Even if your rush deck had 11 damage on the field, a single SoSac makes a net gain of +4 hp. 4 might not be a lot, but I've oversimplified the damage output of rush decks (I should probably get some evidence for that later), and 4 is already 36% of the total damage dissipated. In games, even half a turn can make all the difference, so the one with SoSac gets to live longer.

We both know that most rush decks do not have CC. Obviously that was not what I was talking about.
I mentioned "correct play". This means usually implies "atypical play".  A rush deck should not field a minimum damage greater than 12|10 vs a deck it suspects of having SoSac. This slows down the rush deck but prevents being shut down.
Of course certain decks like Chaos Power Wyrms have an advantage in having different minimum and maximum damage per turn.

[furballdn]

Calculations are based on 4 SoFr's for easy calculation.

Evasion = Semi immaterial. In comparison to immateriality, it has its pros (still buffable with a wide range of spells) and cons (RoF and Thunderstorm). This is a huge thing. Quintessence costs 4|3, and blessing 3|3 buff costs 3|2. In comparison with nightfall, which costs 3|4 and gives 1|1 | 2|1, a spell spread on creatures theoretically has its effects diminished by 2/3. A buff comparable to quintessence (let's assume ~3|~2 cost) spread on air creatures should have 3 cards + ~9|~6 elemental cost.
Semi invulnerability is probably worth half of a cloak since it only protects your creatures, so you pay 4 cards + 12 for half of a cloak that ONLY applies to airborne air creatures. How many of those are in the game? Oh that's right. Only 5. In the entire game. Looking at liststats, let's see how they rank.
Damsel-109 Wyrm-32 Firefly-19 Elite queen-321 Azure dragon-20
Out of the 5 creatures that get the evasion bonus, only 2 cards are used more than 100k times, and the other 3 are near the bottom of card usage. damsel, and elite queen. Elite queen is also most often used in rainbows, so the 321k usage that it has is probably based on that, and rainbows aren't focused on airborne creatures. How much is the "Evasion only applies to 5 creatures that are all very underused" factor?

Critical strike = 1.5x damage + shield bypass. Let's just assume airborne creatures have 6 damage on average (dragons, don't argue!). This has a value of 3 damage + shield bypass. In comparison with Chaos Power + Momentum, which is 2 cards +  +  for 4|4 + shield bypass, 100% critical strike should cost around 2 cards + 1 elemental cost. Spread it again (this time, on airborne creatures, which has a wider range compared to only  for Nightfall|Eclipse) and you get 6 cards + 3 elemental cost.
Actual average of all airborne creature's attack is 5.45|7, but you have to ask yourself, are all the creatures spaced evenly? Who honestly uses dragons with SoFre besides azure dragon and ruby dragon? A more effective argument would probably to use the stat usages of airborne cards and calculate from there. Shield bypass is probably a +2 in my book (based on comparing CP and momentum)

And a grand total of 9 cards + ~12|~9 elemental cost for 4 cards + 20|12 rainbow cost. Silly.And note that I was very forgiving on my calculations there.
You pay 4 cards + 12 for psuedo invincibility to only 5 very underused creatures and the crit/1.5 multiplier

[Cheesy111]

Spoiler for Hidden:

Calculations are based on 4 SoFr's for easy calculation.

Evasion = Semi immaterial. In comparison to immateriality, it has its pros (still buffable with a wide range of spells) and cons (RoF and Thunderstorm). This is a huge thing. Quintessence costs 4|3, and blessing 3|3 buff costs 3|2. In comparison with nightfall, which costs 3|4 and gives 1|1 | 2|1, a spell spread on creatures theoretically has its effects diminished by 2/3. A buff comparable to quintessence (let's assume ~3|~2 cost) spread on air creatures should have 3 cards + ~9|~6 elemental cost.
Semi invulnerability is probably worth half of a cloak since it only protects your creatures, so you pay 4 cards + 12 for half of a cloak that ONLY applies to airborne air creatures. How many of those are in the game? Oh that's right. Only 5. In the entire game. Looking at liststats, let's see how they rank.
Damsel-109 Wyrm-32 Firefly-19 Elite queen-321 Azure dragon-20
Out of the 5 creatures that get the evasion bonus, only 2 cards are used more than 100k times, and the other 3 are near the bottom of card usage. damsel, and elite queen. Elite queen is also most often used in rainbows, so the 321k usage that it has is probably based on that, and rainbows aren't focused on airborne creatures. How much is the "Evasion only applies to 5 creatures that are all very underused" factor?

Critical strike = 1.5x damage + shield bypass. Let's just assume airborne creatures have 6 damage on average (dragons, don't argue!). This has a value of 3 damage + shield bypass. In comparison with Chaos Power + Momentum, which is 2 cards +  +  for 4|4 + shield bypass, 100% critical strike should cost around 2 cards + 1 elemental cost. Spread it again (this time, on airborne creatures, which has a wider range compared to only  for Nightfall|Eclipse) and you get 6 cards + 3 elemental cost.
Actual average of all airborne creature's attack is 5.45|7, but you have to ask yourself, are all the creatures spaced evenly? Who honestly uses dragons with SoFre besides azure dragon and ruby dragon? A more effective argument would probably to use the stat usages of airborne cards and calculate from there. Shield bypass is probably a +2 in my book (based on comparing CP and momentum)

And a grand total of 9 cards + ~12|~9 elemental cost for 4 cards + 20|12 rainbow cost. Silly.And note that I was very forgiving on my calculations there.
You pay 4 cards + 12 for psuedo invincibility to only 5 very underused creatures and the crit/1.5 multiplier

Usage, though correlated to power, is not direct enough of a link for it to be used in balance discussions.  Other things to consider are that SoFre invulnerability isn't completely destroyed with one PC usage and that Wyrms get abnormal benefit from it.