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Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522223#msg522223
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2012, 03:31:43 pm »
SoP needs a nerf? Are you serious? It's hardly even used as is! I haven't seen SoW or SoFr dominating the metagame, either.

Oh and don't forget, the point of this game, in the end, is to be FUN. SoI decks are very fun!

I use SoP in every single creature deck I run (except pharoahs sometimes).  That's not a good thing.  SoP hard-counters PCless stalls as well as SoSac and soft-counters delay/freeze decks or cards.  It's powerful.

Offline rosutosefiTopic starter

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522228#msg522228
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2012, 03:51:49 pm »
SoP needs a nerf? Are you serious? It's hardly even used as is! I haven't seen SoW or SoFr dominating the metagame, either.

Oh and don't forget, the point of this game, in the end, is to be FUN. SoI decks are very fun!
Yes, it needs a nerf.
1: Stallbreaking capabilities. One SoP can usually hand you the win against PCless stalls. Is there a card that can counter a deck archetype even if you only bring one copy? Only SoP. And yes, PCless stalls are common.
2: Overshadows nightfall except in extremely rare circumstances where you need the silly 1 damage immediately. You can stall more depending on the enemy shield, and it is far more flexible compared to nightfall.

Well, I haven't seen Blessing or Nightfall dominate the game either.

I have a question: does Earth have a shard? Realtime elements is kinda fun, too, but would you like it implemented in the game?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:10:39 pm by rosutosefi »
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522261#msg522261
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2012, 06:12:44 pm »
So here's my proposal: minimizing the shards.

The "minimized" shards will have smaller costs and weaker effects. Enough to give what your element needs, but not enough so that you can just run 6 of them and beat the enemy while yelling some kind of trololo language. I firmly believe that they should NOT be scrapped off, because we all agree that elements like life, water, time and light need some kind of PC, right?

So here goes the proposed changes:
All shards will have 1 elemental (or maybe 3 :rainbow cost?) | 1 :rainbow cost
This is a good default solution to OP other cards. (Unneeded for balanced other cards) It reigns them into the area where  :rainbow is the least misbehaved.

 :gravity 1 Deflagration ~= 3 :fire + 1 card ~= 2 :fire + 1 turn + 1 card ~= 5 :rainbow + 1 turn + 1 card => Casting Cost = 3 :rainbow, Activation Cost = 2 :rainbow

Instead of placing an activation cost, I would like to nerf it more instead. I (and a hundred other protesters) really disliked the part where rainbows benefit from the shards instead of the element, so more random cost is a no-go.
The effect of Deflagration will never be cheaper than 5 :rainbow + 1 turn + 1 card without imbalance. If you want less random cost then you will need to nerf the effect below "Single Use: Destroy Target Permanent". If you nerf it below that point then you have removed its purpose.

PS: Would you have preferred if the shards stole elemental effects without any loyalty mechanics? The addition of loyalty mechanics was a great way to reestablish the elemental themes in the 3 original shards. Other cards will always favor Rainbow over Mono. It probably is too soon to try to fully incorporate the shards into elements. (aka: take the victory without being too greedy)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 01:00:45 am by OldTrees »
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Offline mesaprotector

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522352#msg522352
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2012, 10:50:39 pm »
I don't see how SoP hard-counters PCless stalls at all. Sure, it buffs your creatures. If they're not water creatures, they're still easy to kill. It's a soft-counter, not a hard-counter. It DOES hard-counter SoSa, but I seem to recall everyone was complaining about there being no counter for SoSa before that buff.

Well, I haven't seen Blessing or Nightfall dominate the game either.

Yeah, and they don't need to be nerfed either, so the comparison is invalid :S
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 02:01:53 am by mesaprotector »
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Offline rosutosefiTopic starter

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522975#msg522975
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2012, 05:26:33 am »
I don't see how SoP hard-counters PCless stalls at all. Sure, it buffs your creatures. If they're not water creatures, they're still easy to kill. It's a soft-counter, not a hard-counter. It DOES hard-counter SoSa, but I seem to recall everyone was complaining about there being no counter for SoSa before that buff.
Well, I haven't seen Blessing or Nightfall dominate the game either.
Yeah, and they don't need to be nerfed either, so the comparison is invalid :S

Take this recent BL match as an example: I was playing ghostmare against Cheesy's SoPa SoFantabow (I'll just call it fantabow). I survived his first turn double SoFo and he started playing graboids. I got an eternity out, which means I stopped all SoFo threats. Then he played graboids and one SoPa before I got the GotP chain out. Without the SoPa, it would have been a breeze, but everything changed when the fire nation attacked SoPa was added into the deck. This also happened with a match against Vineroz where I was using my Fantabow. I didn't draw my SoFo's against his drag OTK, but still, I drew a SoPa, and that means his sundials won't mean much against me. One card alone that kills a huge line of decks out there. Keyword here is One. I'll keep saying it. One.

The effect of Deflagration will never be cheaper than 5 :rainbow + 1 turn + 1 card without imbalance. If you want less random cost then you will need to nerf the effect below "Single Use: Destroy Target Permanent". If you nerf it below that point then you have removed its purpose.

PS: Would you have preferred if the shards stole elemental effects without any loyalty mechanics? The addition of loyalty mechanics was a great way to reestablish the elemental themes in the 3 original shards. Other cards will always favor Rainbow over Mono. It probably is too soon to try to fully incorporate the shards into elements. (aka: take the victory without being too greedy)

I added a delay thing to it so it will be 3 :rainbow + 2 turns + 1 card. I think that's okay-ish. And even if I dislike the elemental loyalty stuff, it really is good for the game, so I added the Geode. Favoring rainbows is okay, but making it extremely underpowered in mono's is a very bad thing IMO.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 05:31:48 am by rosutosefi »
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Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg522978#msg522978
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 05:41:47 am »
I don't see how SoP hard-counters PCless stalls at all. Sure, it buffs your creatures. If they're not water creatures, they're still easy to kill. It's a soft-counter, not a hard-counter. It DOES hard-counter SoSa, but I seem to recall everyone was complaining about there being no counter for SoSa before that buff.

Well, I haven't seen Blessing or Nightfall dominate the game either.

Yeah, and they don't need to be nerfed either, so the comparison is invalid :S

With SoP and most of the creature decks I run (especially graboid ones) I can easily beat any PCless stall because I can raise my creature damage high enough to OTK/TTK, and avoid most of the usual counters for it (sundial, sosac, bust through diss, counteract AM, etc.). 

Note: This is also what killed monolight.

Offline mesaprotector

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523129#msg523129
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2012, 08:22:20 pm »
One Miracle or Fractal (or even a well-timed Silence) can arguably change the game more than one SoP. It's a situational card that only counters a few decks - for example, it's useless against firestall, even PC-less firestall. It's useless against rush decks. It's useless against decks with PC. It only counters a few specific cards - Sundial, SoSa, Phase Shield, Wings (sometimes), and Antimatter (sometimes).

I am going to scream if SoP is nerfed without SoSa and SoFo being nerfed first.
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Offline rosutosefiTopic starter

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523163#msg523163
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2012, 11:51:15 pm »
One Miracle or Fractal (or even a well-timed Silence) can arguably change the game more than one SoP. It's a situational card that only counters a few decks - for example, it's useless against firestall, even PC-less firestall. It's useless against rush decks. It's useless against decks with PC. It only counters a few specific cards - Sundial, SoSa, Phase Shield, Wings (sometimes), and Antimatter (sometimes).

I am going to scream if SoP is nerfed without SoSa and SoFo being nerfed first.

The fact that in counters those by adding one in a deck that is supposedly countered by those is the problem. This one card turns the rush into a stallbreaker, and no, silence or even fractal/miracle (if you could even cast them) will not turn your graboid rainbow into a stallbreaker.

And the overpoweredness can also be proven by comparing it with the supposedly balanced Nightfall, even when used in a monodark. SoP gives you the option of adding one more damage to your creatures in case the enemy has a DR shield, and even if you sacrifice one round of attack, you'll deal more damage later on, considering that darkness is one of the elements that has the most weak (low attack) creatures. What other element has a lot of weak creatures? Oh right. WATER. Makes it even worse. The same argument can be said for Eclipse in darkness vs SoP in water.
And remember that PC can't do anything once SoPa already finished its dirty task.

BTW, have you actually used SoSa in unupped play without SoD? It sucks. Really. SoD is the problem, not SoSa. I have never seen a good SoSa deck used in competitive PVP that does not use SoD. And after the last patch, I have not seen SoSa decks. Oh look, SoP also killed Mono-Light.

And I'm not saying that we should nerf SoP before we nerf SoFo. I never said anything like that. In fact, I even proposed that SoFo should get nerfed to oblivion. Can't we all just agree that SoFo is a terrible card and should be nerfed like hell? Then we can all forget that it exists and proceed to balancing every other card, then live a perfect life where everyone is happy. We won't get anywhere if people will always say "SoFo is more overpowered! NO!" because it really is. It bothers me, I've heard this argument a lot of times yesterday. Say you have an increadibly huge cow, then you bring the elephant named SoFo beside it, then you say that the cow is small. That's not very logical, isn't it?
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Offline bogtro

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523165#msg523165
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 12:12:43 am »
Do you happen to have a semi-competitive deck utilizing SoP before complaining about it?
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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523166#msg523166
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2012, 12:14:43 am »
Do you happen to have a semi-competitive deck utilizing SoP before complaining about it?
The point was you can take most competitive rush decks, add 1-2 SoP and be able to remove a significant weakness of that rush deck. Aka a semi-competitive deck utilizing SoP.
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Offline bogtro

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523168#msg523168
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2012, 12:26:59 am »
I really don't see this. With x attack in a non-water deck, over n turns you would do xn damage without SoP, and (x+1)(n-1) damage with it (per creature). To make this worthwhile, we must have (x+1)(n-1)>xn -> xn+n-x-1>xn -> n>x+1, or the number of turns must exceed 1 more than the original attack.

If you leave SoP on for more turns, say a turns, we have (x+a)(n-a)>xn -> xn+a(n-x)-a^2>xn -> a(n-x)>a^2 -> n-x>a -> n>x+a. This means that the number of turns after playing SoP must exceed a more than the original attack.

With rosuto's example of Darkness, this means that a Gargoyle needs to last at least 7 turns (as well as the game) in order for SoP to be worthwhile [assuming you value the little extra damage over 1 card]. The only real way I can see this being helpful is against pure healing stalls (Mono-Light, Ferox's defense, etc.), or DR shields (in which case you are very likely to be outrushed anyway with that many necessary turns). Most stall decks have some means of creature removal, which SoP does nothing to help against. 

Only for water is SoP somewhat useful, and even there not so much. Water lacks other means to support SoP. Besides this, elemental bonuses are intended.

In comparison to Nightfall, which is intentionally situational and elemental (hence the card description), SoP gives lower bonuses (+1|+0 vs. +1|+1) and delay, in exchange for a linear effect of SoP instead of the one-time effect of nightfall. It should be noted that neither stack.
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Offline rosutosefiTopic starter

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Re: Shard "Minimizing" https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42028.msg523169#msg523169
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2012, 12:34:58 am »
Do you happen to have a semi-competitive deck utilizing SoP before complaining about it?
Fantabow. Counters almost anything. And add it to almost any creature rush, especially with graboids.

I really don't see this. With x attack in a non-water deck, over n turns you would do xn damage without SoP, and (x+1)(n-1) damage with it (per creature). To make this worthwhile, we must have (x+1)(n-1)>xn -> xn+n-x-1>xn -> n>x+1, or the number of turns must exceed 1 more than the original attack.

If you leave SoP on for more turns, say a turns, we have (x+a)(n-a)>xn -> xn+a(n-x)-a^2>xn -> a(n-x)>a^2 -> n-x>a -> n>x+a. This means that the number of turns after playing SoP must exceed a more than the original attack.

With rosuto's example of Darkness, this means that a Gargoyle needs to last at least 7 turns (as well as the game) in order for SoP to be worthwhile [assuming you value the little extra damage over 1 card]. The only real way I can see this being helpful is against pure healing stalls (Mono-Light, Ferox's defense, etc.), or DR shields (in which case you are very likely to be outrushed anyway with that many necessary turns). Most stall decks have some means of creature removal, which SoP does nothing to help against. 

Only for water is SoP somewhat useful, and even there not so much. Water lacks other means to support SoP. Besides this, elemental bonuses are intended.

In comparison to Nightfall, which is intentionally situational and elemental (hence the card description), SoP gives lower bonuses (+1|+0 vs. +1|+1) and delay, in exchange for a linear effect of SoP instead of the one-time effect of nightfall. It should be noted that neither stack.

Eh, I don't understand the (x+1)(n-1) thing. If you leave it for 3 turns, your creature attacks twice? It doesn't math. It's supposed to be xn < n+x-1, and yes, that is small. Of course you don't attempt to OTK unless necessary, you'll do less damage.

Let's do it this way: Leave SoP for a turns and remove it, then attack for b turns. x is the creature attack.
Nightfall deals (x+1)(a+b) damage.
SoP deals (x+a-1)(b) damage.
Oh wait. Optimization. Nah, I won't do this. This will have to wait later. And look, gargoyle is the second strongest creature is darkness. Note that darkness has a lot of <=3 attack creatures.
Let's do it the easy way!  :D
3 attack.
3 attack with nightfall over 3 turns = 12 damage. That's nice.
3 attack with SoP for 1 turn, then left to attack for 2 turns. 8 damage. That sucks.

3 attack with nightfall over 10 turns = 40 damage.
3 attack with SoP for 4 (or 3) turns, then left to attack for 6 (or 7) turns. 42 damage.

Now, let the 1 DR shield join the party!
3 attack with nightfall over 3 turns = 9 damage.
3 attack with SoP for 1 turn, then left to attack for 2 turns. 6 damage. That still sucks.

3 attack with nightfall over 10 turns = 30 damage.
3 attack with SoP for 4 turns, then left to attack for 6 turns. 36 damage. But that's overkill!

Now with Vamps and the silly DR shield:
2 attack with nightfall over 6 turns = 10 damage.
2 attack with SoP for 3 turns, then left to attack for 3 turns. 12 damage.

Now with devs and a DR shield. Wait no. No maths needed there.

It's potentially better. Not so good, but remember we're looking at a monodark. SoP also has stalling capabilities, which makes it better than nightfall. It may be weak with dragons, but heck, we're looking at a monodark here. There's no need for math in the monowater situation.

Water has no cards that support SoP? Chrysaora. Squid. Add Blue Crawler and Mind Flayer to that. In some situations, even Puffer Fish.
And nightfall is already RESTRICTED for use in dark and death. Does that make SoP's elemental bonus any more special?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 01:19:46 am by rosutosefi »
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anything
blarg: