Shard "Minimizing"

[choongmyoung]

me... 100% agree. What I thought for shards are all in there. that's great.

[rosutosefi]

Semi invulnerability is probably worth half of a cloak since it only protects your creatures, so you pay 4 cards + 12 for half of a cloak that ONLY applies to airborne air creatures. How many of those are in the game? Oh that's right. Only 5. In the entire game.
Cloak lasts 3 turns. Nuff said.
How many air creatures are airborne? ALL OF THEM, - Nymph. I already considered that, look at the very same argument for a well-established card, Nightfall. OMG how many dark creatures are there?

Looking at liststats, let's see how they rank.
Damsel-109 Wyrm-32 Firefly-19 Elite queen-321 Azure dragon-20
Out of the 5 creatures that get the evasion bonus, only 2 cards are used more than 100k times, and the other 3 are near the bottom of card usage. damsel, and elite queen. Elite queen is also most often used in rainbows, so the 321k usage that it has is probably based on that, and rainbows aren't focused on airborne creatures. How much is the "Evasion only applies to 5 creatures that are all very underused" factor?
Adding an OP card to balance supposedly weaker cards is bad design. Relevant: SoFo vs Dimshield argument.

Actual average of all airborne creature's attack is 5.45|7, but you have to ask yourself, are all the creatures spaced evenly? Who honestly uses dragons with SoFre besides azure dragon and ruby dragon? A more effective argument would probably to use the stat usages of airborne cards and calculate from there. Shield bypass is probably a +2 in my book (based on comparing CP and momentum)
I'm beginning to hate this "card usage stat" argument. If these cards are underpowered, buff them. If not, let them be. If an overpowered mechanic is needed, once again, bad design. This restricts potential for new cards and may even be a reason for the collapse of Elements due to a point where no possible cards can be added due to these unnecessary restrictions.

You pay 4 cards + 12 for psuedo invincibility to only 5 very underused creatures and the crit/1.5 multiplier
Friggin card usage argument. An advantage is an advantage. It's not like you're forced to use graboids if you have SoFre. Restricting cards does not guarantee an increase in power. Restricting usage in selected situations that are not fully in your control, like Mirror Shield or Aflatoxin, does. Look at this example:

[OldTrees]

	OP	UP
Overused	Likely	Unlikely
Underused	Not happening	Likely

As can be seen in the table above. I feel that imbalance does influence usage BUT it is not a high correlation.
Aka OP --> Overused but Overused -/> OP

[furballdn]

	OP	UP
Overused	Likely	Unlikely
Underused	Not happening	Likely

As can be seen in the table above. I feel that imbalance does influence usage BUT it is not a high correlation.
Aka OP --> Overused but Overused -/> OP

If OP-->OU, then something UU can't be OP, because if it were OP, it'd be OU.

[Cheesy111]

	OP	UP
Overused	Likely	Unlikely
Underused	Not happening	Likely

As can be seen in the table above. I feel that imbalance does influence usage BUT it is not a high correlation.
Aka OP --> Overused but Overused -/> OP

If OP-->OU, then something UU can't be OP, because if it were OP, it'd be OU.

If not a single person used SoFo tomorrow it would still be OP.

[OldTrees]

	OP	UP
Overused	Likely	Unlikely
Underused	Not happening	Likely

As can be seen in the table above. I feel that imbalance does influence usage BUT it is not a high correlation.
Aka OP --> Overused but Overused -/> OP

If OP-->OU, then something UU can't be OP, because if it were OP, it'd be OU.

"Not happening" and "OP --> OU" was meant to describe the very strong tendency for the smart people on the forum to use the most powerful cards against the AI.
If this additude changes then I will stop making the assertion.

[rosutosefi]

	OP	UP
Overused	Likely	Unlikely
Underused	Not happening	Likely

As can be seen in the table above. I feel that imbalance does influence usage BUT it is not a high correlation.
Aka OP --> Overused but Overused -/> OP

If OP-->OU, then something UU can't be OP, because if it were OP, it'd be OU.

If this is true for the air creatures, buff them. Don't add an overpowered card. I'm gonna buff B because A is underpowered does not sound logical.

[furballdn]

Actually, darkness creatures are very OU, with both vampire and upped devourer being in the high 200ks.

All I'm getting is theoretical arguments by comparing SoFre to other cards. Theory always bows to empirical evidence. If you really want to prove to me that it is OP, please design a deck based on SoFre that is very good. Also, do notify me if that happens, since I've been looking for a good SoFre deck for a long time

[rosutosefi]

Actually, darkness creatures are very OU, with both vampire and upped devourer being in the high 200ks.

All I'm getting is theoretical arguments by comparing SoFre to other cards. Theory always bows to empirical evidence. If you really want to prove to me that it is OP, please design a deck based on SoFre that is very good. Also, do notify me if that happens, since I've been looking for a good SoFre deck for a long time

Empirical evidence is not always indicative of balance due to the decks that currently rule the metagame. The problem is the same with SoW, the card is really powerful, but this is counterbalanced with one of the targets being UP (I dare you say that immortals are balanced, I dare you) and this does not mean that the card is balanced. This limits design and forces combos. For example: if Pharaohs had 10 ability cost for 6-attack scarabs (and let's just say 7 upped), would it be UP or OP? With SoR interaction, is it balanced? No. Is this a good idea? No. Does it limit the power of the cards in question if it is to be balanced? Yes. Is it good to improve an UP card using an OP card? Hell no.

And I think you'll agree that SoFo might be balanced if Immolation, Novas and QP did not allow easy casting of the SoFo. Does this warrant a QP nerf? No. If Potato Magical Atonement made it into the game, should we nerf antlion? Is antlion the problem?

[OldTrees]

Actually, darkness creatures are very OU, with both vampire and upped devourer being in the high 200ks.

All I'm getting is theoretical arguments by comparing SoFre to other cards. Theory always bows to empirical evidence. If you really want to prove to me that it is OP, please design a deck based on SoFre that is very good. Also, do notify me if that happens, since I've been looking for a good SoFre deck for a long time

Empirical evidence is not always indicative of balance due to the decks that currently rule the metagame. The problem is the same with SoW, the card is really powerful, but this is counterbalanced with one of the targets being UP (I dare you say that immortals are balanced, I dare you) and this does not mean that the card is balanced. This limits design and forces combos. For example: if Pharaohs had 10 ability cost for 6-attack scarabs (and let's just say 7 upped), would it be UP or OP? With SoR interaction, is it balanced? No. Is this a good idea? No. Does it limit the power of the cards in question if it is to be balanced? Yes. Is it good to improve an UP card using an OP card? Hell no.

And I think you'll agree that SoFo might be balanced if Immolation, Novas and QP did not allow easy casting of the SoFo. Does this warrant a QP nerf? No. If Potato Magical Atonement made it into the game, should we nerf antlion? Is antlion the problem?

I agree.
A deck with cards A and B. (all the above is about the influence of card B)
If Card A is UP and the well designed deck is weak, Card B might be balanced
If Card A is UP and the well designed deck is balanced, Card B might be OP
If Card A is UP and the well designed deck is strong, Card B is likely OP
If Card A is balanced and the well designed deck is weak, Card B might be weak
If Card A is balanced and the well designed deck is balanced, Card B might be balanced
If Card A is balanced and the well designed deck is strong, Card B might be OP
If Card A is OP and the well designed deck is weak, Card B is likely UP
If Card A is OP and the well designed deck is balanced, Card B might be UP
If Card A is OP and the well designed deck is strong, Card B might be balanced

[furballdn]

Magical potato is a forced combo card with antlion, but if it were ever made into the game, the usage of antlion would naturally grow. SoFre has been in the game for a while, but has the usage of airborne creatures or air creatures grown?

@OldTrees let's look at some decks then.

Hover over cards for details, click for permalink

Deck import code : [Select]

6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7n0 7n0 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n2 7n5 7n5 7n5 7n5 7n5 7n5 7oe 7oe 7oe 7oe 8pr

Damsel-Good card
Fog shield-Good card
Eagle Eye-Good card
Animate weapon-Good card

How is the deck? It's good. Not fantastic or stellar, but just pretty good.

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6rr 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7ms 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7mv 7n0 8pr

Damsel-Good card
Fog shield-Good card
Longbow-not bad card
Dragon-not bad card

How is this deck? It's not bad, but definitely not fantastic.

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5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 5oe 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 6s6 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7ac 7an 7an 7an 7an 7an 7an 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 7mt 8pn

Damsel-Good card
Wyrm-not bad card
Epi-Good card
Leaf dragon-not bad card

How is this one? Not bad, but not stellar either.

[rosutosefi]

In comparison with? Try comparing it with other air decks.