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Offline FrostguardTopic starter

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Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032059#msg1032059
« on: January 14, 2013, 06:48:10 pm »
Greetings.

I've played this game for over a year, maybe two, even; I can't say I remember exactly. At a time, I took a break and I returned recently. I was pretty convinced that I used to have an account on these forums as well, but apparently it does not exist anymore. Regardless, I experienced several things upon coming back, and whilst I do not know whether they are intentional or not, I thought it couldn't hurt mentioning them.

Namely: pretty much every deck I ever encounter in the Arena is some variation of a rush deck. It seems that game balance has been tilted very tremendously towards them. To be more specific, the vast majority of the decks falls into one of the following categories:

1. Graboid rush: One of the most irritating decks I've ever encountered. Not only it dishes out huge damage in several turns. It almost always has some Earthquakes, most usually several of them right in the first turn, effectively depriving the player of any means to generate quanta save for Nova and Immolation. It also has some Reverse Times, so that even if the player somehow, by some weird twist of fortune, manages to play any creature on my field, it is immediately returned to the hand.

2. Phase Dragons with Shards of Wisdom: Just as annoying as the one above. I must admit, though, that this is due to a single card; I think that Shard of Wisdom is pretty much a gamebreaker now. If the player keeps out an ordinary shield to defend against the dragons, they get the shard to deal spell damage. If the player gets a Reflective Shield out, then the shard is simply not played. Not to mention the issue that this actually requires the player to use either Life or Light quanta, which is not really an issue for me, as I do, but it might be to others. It's quite difficult to solve anyway, because the +4/+0 bonus the shard grants can easily build up to ridiculously high values; I have seen 26/8 Elite Phase Dragons, even. Or, if I happen not to have a reflective shield around, then I happen to encounter three or four 12/8 Phase Dragons with spell damage.

Ghosts with Nightmare: Also rather unmanageable. These can very effectively lock down a player. First by stealing some permanents, which others can do, no big deal; but they don't only prevent drawing new cards with Nightmare, and punish the player for playing cards (by filling their hands with more and more ghosts until they are the only cards available), but also cast Reverse Time on any ghost the player has somehow managed to get on the field. 

Generic Fire rush: One of the more tolerable types, though defence against it is still rather limited. As in, usually it immediately destroys shields or weapons capable of creature control, or uses Rage Potion or Fire Lance to destroy creatures with such skills.

Rainbow Rush: At least these are more varied than the types above, but they all have something in common. Basically a Mark of Entropy with loads of Supernovae, Lava Destroyers, Forest Spirits and Phase Recluses. Basically in the second or third turn of playing I usually meet with a bunch of creatures which deal very considerable damage on their own. Also, Shard of Focus. Yes, it is still an issue, I think; in some rainbow decks, it has gone entirely crazy. At least it's not really a nice thing when the AI plays Fractal on it, and in several turns I literally have no permanents, and should I play some of them, they are immediately destroyed. Also, very similarly to Earthquake, this card can ridiculously easily lock a player down entirely. As in, if it gets played early enough (which isn't that difficult, considering that the upgraded one costs no more than four Gravity quanta), then it destroys three pillars (and considering that I usually have no more than two pillars in my starting hand with almost one third of my deck consisting solely of them) and then it turns into a Black Hole can very easily leave a player completely unable to play anything.

Long story said short: Basically all Arena decks now focus on either getting creatures out in several turns and overwhelm the player before anything could be done or they rely on complete lockdown. Or both (see Graboid rush).

Edited part follows:

I'm sorry for having to edit this, but I had to leave urgently and I have just returned. To finish what I intended to elaborate on:

First, there are some other deck stereotypes that I did not mention. Such as the Darkness Devourer-Steal combination (complete deprivation of quanta, a bit more tolerable than the above because takes a bit longer to set up), the Gravity total lockdown (very nasty... Shard of Focus, add something for damage and the opponent doesn't really stand a chance).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 07:46:56 pm by Frostguard »

Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032062#msg1032062
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 06:51:55 pm »
One, we had a Forum move, so if you wish to regain the information on your account, click here

Two, unfortunately, to rack up wins, most people are turning to generic decks, such as you have mentioned.  There is not much to do about them except to downvote them, I guess.

Offline Rutarete

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032067#msg1032067
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 06:59:50 pm »
One, we had a Forum move, so if you wish to regain the information on your account, click here
The old forum is down, and that tool no longer works. You should send a PM to Xenocidius to link your previous posts.
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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032075#msg1032075
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 07:07:22 pm »
One, we had a Forum move, so if you wish to regain the information on your account, click here
The old forum is down, and that tool no longer works. You should send a PM to Xenocidius to link your previous posts.

Oh, it's tied to the old Forum... huh...

On an odd tangent, the Cloak avatar made me think it was Xeno first.

Offline Rutarete

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032076#msg1032076
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 07:10:33 pm »
On an odd tangent, the Cloak avatar made me think it was Xeno first.
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Offline FrostguardTopic starter

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032100#msg1032100
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 08:03:41 pm »
Thank you for the response. I think I will try to contact Xenocidius in this case, but regardless...

My main issue with the decks is not that they are generic. Well, I really like and value creativity, so I'd like an uniquely created deck much better, of course, but my main issue lies in two problems:

1. Now it seems that the game is all about speed. These rush decks usually decide the fate of the match within the first two, or if they are exceptionally slow, three rounds. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but it doesn't change the fact that the current circumstances do not allow the slightly slower, but much more creative and interesting decks to live.

2. Some of these are either very strongly restricting the player in defence or almost outright invincible except for cases of huge luck (Graboid rush, Gravity lockdown, for example; these decks can easily mess the entire game up in the very first round, rendering the player unable to do anything other than watching their deck being torn apart).

Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032152#msg1032152
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 12:45:56 am »
Thank you for the response. I think I will try to contact Xenocidius in this case, but regardless...

My main issue with the decks is not that they are generic. Well, I really like and value creativity, so I'd like an uniquely created deck much better, of course, but my main issue lies in two problems:

1. Now it seems that the game is all about speed. These rush decks usually decide the fate of the match within the first two, or if they are exceptionally slow, three rounds. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but it doesn't change the fact that the current circumstances do not allow the slightly slower, but much more creative and interesting decks to live. A lot of decks in the previous league seasons were not rushes. And graboid rushes are all but unstoppable. they have the same weak point as others, CC

2. Some of these are either very strongly restricting the player in defence or almost outright invincible except for cases of huge luck (Graboid rush, Gravity lockdown, for example; these decks can easily mess the entire game up in the very first round, rendering the player unable to do anything other than watching their deck being torn apart). gravity, unupped at least, doesn't have a very good lock down at all. Mono entropy is a much better example, but still, plenty of counters.
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Offline Fluffboll

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032291#msg1032291
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 09:55:42 am »
Ghostmare seriously needs to be erradicated from this game. It isn't fun to play with and it certainly isn't fun to play against. 12 Rewinds 12 steals and you can't do anything at all all game unless they get the worst starting hand in the history of starting hands.

Ghost of the Past and Nightmare have only one combo and that is with each other but that combo is so completely broken it isn't even funny. I took a 4 month break because of those decks making Arena unplayable, came back a few weeks ago but will probably stop playing again now because those decks suck out all potential fun this game could have had.

Offline Mathematistic

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032310#msg1032310
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 01:48:31 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Truths:

A. Losing creates frustration
B. A rush with less HP loses to a rush with more HP, and a rush with lower card/quanta advantage loses to a rush with more card/quanta advantage, other things being constant.

Statements:
1a. People use rushes because they are also their grind decks.
1b. Grind decks aim to yield most electrum or score or rare per minute, so fast games are beneficial usually.

2. From 1b, doing arena with a slow deck is non-profitable usually (I said USUALLY, don't argue with me about getting fat EMs in plat)

3. From 1a, constructing a rush deck is convenient, because they are already one of your grinders in your pocket.

4. From 2 and 3, arena becomes, usually, a rush vs rush situation.

5. Arena decks has innate advantages such as double draw/mark, more HP etc.

6. From 5 and B, loses vs arena decks is frequent.

7. From A and 6, frustration is created. Q.E.D.

......
Enough of this witticism. 1 is not a perfect assumption. Arena rushes are deadly because of their innate advantages. That is one of the reasons why people use SoSac/BH etc. to counter them, while having a rush department to mow them down. But still, in the event of bad draws, arena rushes dominates. They can be countered and grinded with the correct deck, but it takes a lot of time to R&D one. Using existing counters like DBH, spider/wings etc. also works, but making a balanced mix between control/denial and your own rush speed takes a lot of skill and time.

......
Or, just don't rush arena. Make a stall to earn juicy EMs. Use PA to counter PC. Use quint to counter bolts. Use oty + quint to consume everything. But, surviving the initial lag is hard, too, so a good stall needs to be good.

......
......
Game balance is not skewed to rush decks. Time skews the game to rush decks. Not the element. It is the "per min" logic. And people have faith in their grinders as they've seen them perform well enough in their play time (cognitive bias?).
......

Contains flawed logic and useless remarks.
PVE shouldn't be all about copying a deck code and converting time into electrum, score, and potentially rares.
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Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032384#msg1032384
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 06:51:25 pm »
Ghostmare seriously needs to be erradicated from this game. It isn't fun to play with and it certainly isn't fun to play against. 12 Rewinds 12 steals and you can't do anything at all all game unless they get the worst starting hand in the history of starting hands.

Ghost of the Past and Nightmare have only one combo and that is with each other but that combo is so completely broken it isn't even funny. I took a 4 month break because of those decks making Arena unplayable, came back a few weeks ago but will probably stop playing again now because those decks suck out all potential fun this game could have had.
Lol what? Ghostmare not fun to play? Don't be so general. I for one loved and still enjoy playing it. As for not being able to play arena because of it, there really aren't that many, at least not in bronze.
Also, balancing is done based on pvp, not arena. And no, ghostmare is not that amazing in pvp. Plenty of counters to it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 06:54:00 pm by omegareaper7 »
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Offline Fluffboll

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032412#msg1032412
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 07:48:56 pm »
Ghostmare seriously needs to be erradicated from this game. It isn't fun to play with and it certainly isn't fun to play against. 12 Rewinds 12 steals and you can't do anything at all all game unless they get the worst starting hand in the history of starting hands.

Ghost of the Past and Nightmare have only one combo and that is with each other but that combo is so completely broken it isn't even funny. I took a 4 month break because of those decks making Arena unplayable, came back a few weeks ago but will probably stop playing again now because those decks suck out all potential fun this game could have had.
Lol what? Ghostmare not fun to play? Don't be so general. I for one loved and still enjoy playing it. As for not being able to play arena because of it, there really aren't that many, at least not in bronze.
Also, balancing is done based on pvp, not arena. And no, ghostmare is not that amazing in pvp. Plenty of counters to it.

I don't play PVP and I don't play Bronze because there is no point to it. I hate Ghostmare more then anything in any card game that has ever been invented and I find it horribly boring to play and beyond frustrating to play against. I run into Ghostmares more then any other type of deck but then again I don't play bronze because I want a challenge but Ghostmares go beyond that and makes me want to quit the game and never return. I don't mind losing if the deck is well put together but I see no point in playing if all I get is frustrated when I run into a Ghostmare for the N:th time in one day.

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Re: Rush decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45990.msg1032444#msg1032444
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 09:19:37 pm »
Ghostmare seriously needs to be erradicated from this game. It isn't fun to play with and it certainly isn't fun to play against. 12 Rewinds 12 steals and you can't do anything at all all game unless they get the worst starting hand in the history of starting hands.

Ghost of the Past and Nightmare have only one combo and that is with each other but that combo is so completely broken it isn't even funny. I took a 4 month break because of those decks making Arena unplayable, came back a few weeks ago but will probably stop playing again now because those decks suck out all potential fun this game could have had.
Lol what? Ghostmare not fun to play? Don't be so general. I for one loved and still enjoy playing it. As for not being able to play arena because of it, there really aren't that many, at least not in bronze.
Also, balancing is done based on pvp, not arena. And no, ghostmare is not that amazing in pvp. Plenty of counters to it.

I don't play PVP and I don't play Bronze because there is no point to it. I hate Ghostmare more then anything in any card game that has ever been invented and I find it horribly boring to play and beyond frustrating to play against. I run into Ghostmares more then any other type of deck but then again I don't play bronze because I want a challenge but Ghostmares go beyond that and makes me want to quit the game and never return. I don't mind losing if the deck is well put together but I see no point in playing if all I get is frustrated when I run into a Ghostmare for the N:th time in one day.
As for not finding it fun to play, that is a personal problem. And ghostmare is not a "card", it is a combo of two cards.
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