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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291400#msg291400
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 12:01:22 am »
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Not to mention that so far I see only 4 'Yes' votes and I can deduce they're all from newbies who really shouldn't demand much without knowing the game's ins and outs
Can you (or any good player) explain how a mulligan like the one proposed would change the game behaviour ? its a real question, i'm not sarcastic at all.
I see that this game has a well developped community, and the game is not new and well established, maybe it explain why 'old' players are against this suggestion while new players maybe aren't :)
A manual mulligan would require a manual pseudo turn to be inserted before the real turns. The manual mulligan could not be part of the first turn because there are cards like nightmare that can change the hand.
This additional turn would be an annoyance except when the mulligan is needed. In most cases the automulligan fixes the same problems a manual mulligan would. When grinding with a deck using pillars or a properly built deck that uses immolation there is no benefit and it slows down the grinding for electrum, score and cards.
These extra turns give connections more opportunities to desync causing problems with gameplay in pvp.

TLDR: The current automatic mulligan creates as much benefit as possible without slowing down PvE or causing more technical problems with PvP.

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I have a feeling it would make more players angry having to choose whether or not they will keep their hand at the beginning of each match. Slows down grinding way too much

Also, who knows what kind of chaos this extra amount of time at the beginning of pvps could cause for the desynch bug
If by grinding you mean get gold from the FG i think its quite the opposite, the mulligan proposed would increase your chance to put a fight against FG you can beat in case of bad starting hands. Actually if your hand sucks and you draw nothing in the next 2 turns its better to quit, with the probability the  next god is an auto quit thus wasting your time.
The biggest problem i see is that's implemented in flash -> possible slow downs etc... and like you said desynch etc..
Grinding includes Ai3 grinding. Time is everything in Ai3, Top50 and unupped PvP grinding. These are the only grinding options available to newbs. The Pros recognize this and try to protect the new player's grinding options.

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A2 - It would force me to add an extra turn in pvp games before the game actually starts: more waiting, more questions, more clicking.
Q - I strongly prefer the system where I can have a mulligan, but if I get one I'll get less cards and it can be repeated up to 3 times, unless it is a first Monday of the month in which case I can get 2/3 of the cards that my opponent had yesterday.
A - Simple = Better
This is just insincerity.
The game is just a clicking fest, how could some more clics bother the player. Also in pvp you must wait for your opponent to play, waiting for a mulligan would change nothing. And its best wasting time for a mulligan then waiting for some pillars or waiting for some cards while playing pillars after pillars.
Also if more waiting is bad then disable the coin toss ffs.
I can agree that this kind of mulligan takes time if you play with real cards, but here we are on a computer, shuffling take milliseconds, and you do it with one single click which sould'nt take you more then 5 sec (included the time for the decision). And if your opponent wants to waste your time he can do it mulligan or not.
Zanz answer shows a total ignorance  about the system. Its absolutely not more complicated then the automulligan in place, and it reduce the frustration a lot more. And you will still have bad hands, and while it increase the chance of getting the card x, you do it with a cost (-1card) and usually card x without card y is worth nothing.

If zanz is against this kind of mulligan i accept his choice but not with those arguments.If he dont want to do it fine but don't search excuses not to do it.
Zanz has recently been able to reduce the flowthru time (aka Ai turns, option to skip after battle summary). I have high hopes that he will find time to further reduce the flowthru by increasing the speed of the cointoss. However there are serious concerns about a manual mulligan instead of an automatic mulligan. (see above) Also a mulligan would require 2 pseudo turns per game including the Ai tring to decide to mull or not. Then the game would have to transfer control between Turn0Player1, Turn0Player2 and finally to Turn1Player1. Also this would have to happen every game not just the games where it is useful. So this is about 30seconds (in PvP closer to 40seconds PvE) added on to every game including the ones where automulligan already is sufficient with a 1second delay or so. Immolation rushes are not popular enough and badly built enough to warrent an additional 29/39 second wait for everybody in pvp/pve.


Thanks for the reply the majority of what you says seems like viable reasons to not add this feature although what i am saying is a suggestion and thus why i created a poll i was just curious what others thought and the reasoning behind the current system thanks for your insight and thoughts.

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291403#msg291403
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 12:07:23 am »
If mulligans were added I would want it to be pvp only (so we don't get complaints from score grinder) I don't think the annoyance of an extra pseudo turn is really that bad and if we are really wanting to cut down on desync so much that we can't add 2-4 pseudo turns at the beginning of a game why don't we just ban stall decks because they increase desync. The only downside to mulligans that I can see is that the Random Number goddess would lose some of her worshipers. In effect I'm trying to say that adding an extra element of strategy by allowing mulligans is a good thing. I say only 2 mulligans per player would be best.
Why should there be different rules for PvP and PvE?
Adding manual mulligans to PvP might be reasonable if there is a reason to have that different of rules between PvP and PvE.
Now that I think about it it would be better to have an option in settings to Turn manual mulligan on and off (if off auto mulligan would happen) that would solve the same problems I was trying to address by saying it should be pvp only.
Great idea.Then people playing pvp and FG's would have the option.and people grinding ai3 ECT. could leave the option turned off as to not slow down their grinding.

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291408#msg291408
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 12:11:45 am »
I just looked through all of your posts and can safely say that I have two options here:
A. I can input my opinion in the form of: a small button that you might buy for 400  :electrum in the main menu? Yes? No?

or, B. We could just create a card that reshuffles all of your hand into your deck and draws 6 or 7 new card from on top. Most likely a  :entropy or Other card.

Your choice.
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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291458#msg291458
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 12:56:12 am »
I just looked through all of your posts and can safely say that I have two options here:
A. I can input my opinion in the form of: a small button that you might buy for 400  :electrum in the main menu? Yes? No?

or, B. We could just create a card that reshuffles all of your hand into your deck and draws 6 or 7 new card from on top. Most likely a  :entropy or Other card.

Your choice.
Option a. I see no reason to make it cost electrum please explain why.

Option b. Why would you restrict it to one ele and that card is op (potentially drawing 6 cards)
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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291477#msg291477
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 01:17:28 am »
I just looked through all of your posts and can safely say that I have two options here:
A. I can input my opinion in the form of: a small button that you might buy for 400  :electrum in the main menu? Yes? No?

or, B. We could just create a card that reshuffles all of your hand into your deck and draws 6 or 7 new card from on top. Most likely a  :entropy or Other card.

Your choice.
Option a. I see no reason to make it cost electrum please explain why.

Option b. Why would you restrict it to one ele and that card is op (potentially drawing 6 cards)
For elaboration on the power of (b), see the MtG card Timetwister, a card with the same effect and one of the most powerful magic cards ever printed.

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291548#msg291548
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 03:02:13 am »
A card that draws a new hand would probably be Time and could be balanced although it would be a powerful card.

Say:
Version 1
4 :time|5 :time
Reshuffle your hand and draw 3|4 cards

Version 2
6 :time|7 :time
Reshuffle your hand and draw 4|5 cards

Yeah I saw that, But the point still stand this needs to be in the game anyways just because one guy says "it's to complicated" (and its not) does not mean anything to me to tell the truth if we want it enough he will cave the needs of the many outweigh the few so to speak and we ARE the support the ideas and the breath of this game for the most part zanz happens to be the man to deliver the needs and as long as he's making money from us he should probably keep us happy right?
Yeah, you definitely deserve it considering the monthly fee...

Not to mention that so far I see only 4 'Yes' votes and I can deduce they're all from newbies who really shouldn't demand much without knowing the game's ins and outs
oh really you mean he does not receive any money from kongregate or our donations? and "newbie" or not i would like the game to be much less based on a lucky draw also i think anyones imput is valid if they have played the game for any decent ammount of time..... your statements sound very eliteist and condesending.
To defend XDude's statement:
I have been lurking or a member half as long as XDude has and I have played less than 1% of the time he has. In this time I have accumulated more unspoken knowledge of how the game works than I can write down. This lends to the habit to state facts or heavily supported opinions about the game to newer members without taking the time to track down the 15 buried posts that were the source of that specific knowledge.
This particular topic has been repeated almost as much as the annoying 13th element topic. Final decisions have been reached and most of the community that was present before the last instance either agrees with Zanz or doesn't care. As such those that disagree with Zanz now are those that joined since the last Mulligan discussion. They have not had sufficient time to learn close to any unspoken details of the game and thus should be inquiring not demanding. It is likely that most suggestions a new member has have been discussed before. This possibility for repetition should inspire humility (but not submission) between each generation of members.
If mulligans were added I would want it to be pvp only (so we don't get complaints from score grinder) I don't think the annoyance of an extra pseudo turn is really that bad and if we are really wanting to cut down on desync so much that we can't add 2-4 pseudo turns at the beginning of a game why don't we just ban stall decks because they increase desync. The only downside to mulligans that I can see is that the Random Number goddess would lose some of her worshipers. In effect I'm trying to say that adding an extra element of strategy by allowing mulligans is a good thing. I say only 2 mulligans per player would be best.
Why should there be different rules for PvP and PvE?
Adding manual mulligans to PvP might be reasonable if there is a reason to have that different of rules between PvP and PvE.
Now that I think about it it would be better to have an option in settings to Turn manual mulligan on and off (if off auto mulligan would happen) that would solve the same problems I was trying to address by saying it should be pvp only.
If manual mulligan exists it will cause the problems detailed in my previous post.
However the best for of this bad idea would be an option to turn manual mulligan on or off.
The additional benefit/problems do not seem to be worth it from my point of view and do not seem convincing enough for Zanz to spend time on it instead of another great card.
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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291570#msg291570
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2011, 04:36:47 am »
"Luck of the draw." (little relevence to what I'm saying, but I love a good cliche  :P)


I like how Elements is currently working, because if anything it is Newb friendly. If a manual mulligan system was ever added the first people who would learn to take advantage of that would be the vets. For newbies it's hard enough to learn deckbuilding, abilities, cost, pillar to card ratio ect. as well as adding in a new "How to decide whether or not I should keep my hand."

I'm defending the newbs and zanz when I say Simple really does = Better

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291572#msg291572
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2011, 04:50:22 am »
Sorry, but no. Manual mulligan > auto-mulligan. As a player I think I'm fully capable of knowing what hands I should keep. It also opens up deck building options because you don't have to worry about auto-mulligan's poor set of criteria.

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291573#msg291573
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2011, 04:57:58 am »
Sorry, but no. Manual mulligan > auto-mulligan. As a player I think I'm fully capable of knowing what hands I should keep. It also opens up deck building options because you don't have to worry about auto-mulligan's poor set of criteria.
Please justify your desire on the topics of the slowing down of all decks and decreasing the reliability of pvp.

Also only Holy Flash and Sundial currently have a problem with the auto mulligan and immolation + fodder is just not as reliable as 2 pillars because it requires 2 cards in the first place.
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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291577#msg291577
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2011, 05:06:34 am »
If by slowing down all decks you mean slowing down the entire game by like 5 seconds at the start of every game than the justification for it is that you have increased the flexibility of deck building. Other than that it doesn't really slow down any deck because when you mulligan the cards end up back in your deck anyway.  You have the same odds of drawing any hand as you do of any other hand so no decks actually lose any ttw. The only difference is that I can choose to throw away a 1 immolation no fodder hand, which is something I should've been allowed to do with any decent mulligan system.

How does this mess with the reliability of pvp exactly?

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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291726#msg291726
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2011, 02:18:42 pm »
How does this mess with the reliability of pvp exactly?
it messes with it because the desynch already causes havoc. That extra time at the start of the game will be even crazier and cause an even better chance of desynch
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Re: Mulligan poll! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22948.msg291739#msg291739
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2011, 02:40:22 pm »
it messes with it because the desynch already causes havoc. That extra time at the start of the game will be even crazier and cause an even better chance of desynch
Considering that the programming would resemble an extra turn at the start of the game, the probability of desynch is no worse than it would be on any other turn. If we're going to not having mulligan because it increases the game's length by a whole 1 turn we might as well get rid off all shields and cards that heal while we're at it.

 

blarg: