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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg541992#msg541992
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 11:54:09 pm »
Arguments over the need for nerfing of splash and speedbows aside, I dislike the idea of "Monotizing" existing cards.

I tend to agree with the school of thought that:
-nerfs to strategy types should generally be dealt with by addition of new cards
-Restriction / modification of the already narrow card set should only be done in flagrant cases (e.g. SoF)

The current card set is still quite small. Nerfing or removing a card has a dramatic impact on metagame. Heavy nerfing or removal of existing cards will reduce the number of viable strategies, which makes the game less fun.

To that end, why not implement the nerf to splash and bow use as creation of a card somewhere along the lines of:


(forgive the inelegant wording at the end, it needs work)

This will give a nerf to use of non-mono spells. It can be used in any deck, so it would have a broad impact on meta-game as a nerf toward speedbows and splash. But, it does so by making the use of low cost cards more risky rather than by forcefully modifying the cards themselves.
It will also allow the players to control the level of disruption. So a trio deck would pack maybe 1 or 2 of these in case of bows, while duos and monos could pack several.
Finally, rather than "Monotizing" the card, the nerf here scales proportionally to the number of quanta types being used.
This means bows (which seem to be the strongest offenders) will be the most heavily hit, while trios and duos (the lower grade "splash" offenders) are less strongly impacted.
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Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg542005#msg542005
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2012, 12:22:21 am »
The problem with not changing existing cards and just adding new cards is that everything ends up OP.  Consider rainbows and black hole.  Rainbows are OP, so Black Hole is created to counter them.  Now rainbows are OP and black holes are OP.  Trios still suck.

Or maybe a more current example.  Perms like Dim and Sanc and Shards are OP, so SoFo is created to counter them.  Now perms are OP and SoFo is OP.  Just because there is a way to counter a card does not make it balanced.  It just becomes an arms race.  Trios still suck.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 01:03:43 am by plastiqe »

Offline meowww

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg542067#msg542067
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2012, 03:45:13 am »
Why not make another OP trio card then!
Though when there are a OP trio card, someone like to play 6 elements in a deck but not rainbow will say "Now even trio are OP, when will we get a buff?"
IMO Arm race is another way to balance, while everyone got a nuke, there are peace... Well, some world police would against it cause there are no more bulling around, but I still think it is a good idea.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg542071#msg542071
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2012, 04:09:12 am »
The problem with not changing existing cards and just adding new cards is that everything ends up OP.  Consider rainbows and black hole.  Rainbows are OP, so Black Hole is created to counter them.  Now rainbows are OP and black holes are OP.  Trios still suck.

Or maybe a more current example.  Perms like Dim and Sanc and Shards are OP, so SoFo is created to counter them.  Now perms are OP and SoFo is OP.  Just because there is a way to counter a card does not make it balanced.  It just becomes an arms race.  Trios still suck.
Black Hole is not the only model for altering the impact of existing cards with the addition of new cards.
Sanctuary is a good example (since I think it is balanced despite your disagreement). It decreases the chance that denial would be powerful against a random deck. However it was balanced in its interactions with both Denial (Steal, Early Discord) and with non Denial opponents.

Summary: Everything only ends up OP when you are doing it wrong.
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Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000371#msg1000371
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2012, 03:42:15 pm »
Black Hole is not the only model for altering the impact of existing cards with the addition of new cards.
Sanctuary is a good example (since I think it is balanced despite your disagreement). It decreases the chance that denial would be powerful against a random deck. However it was balanced in its interactions with both Denial (Steal, Early Discord) and with non Denial opponents.

Summary: Everything only ends up OP when you are doing it wrong.
It's being done wrong then.

I don't like Sanctuary as the answer to all Denial.  This example is simplistic but... if someone is running Denial and you don't have Sanctuary you lose.  If you do have Sanctuary you win.  Not good design IMO because it removes strategic decisions from the game and makes it all about deckbuilding choices before the match.

But if you disagree about Sanc that's fine.  Dims and Shards are OP perms, so OP SoFo is created to counter them.

Also, I added monotized Shard casting costs to the original post.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000374#msg1000374
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2012, 03:53:09 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Black Hole is not the only model for altering the impact of existing cards with the addition of new cards.
Sanctuary is a good example (since I think it is balanced despite your disagreement). It decreases the chance that denial would be powerful against a random deck. However it was balanced in its interactions with both Denial (Steal, Early Discord) and with non Denial opponents.

Summary: Everything only ends up OP when you are doing it wrong.
It's being done wrong then.

I don't like Sanctuary as the answer to all Denial.  This example is simplistic but... if someone is running Denial and you don't have Sanctuary you lose.  If you do have Sanctuary you win.  Not good design IMO because it removes strategic decisions from the game and makes it all about deckbuilding choices before the match.

But if you disagree about Sanc that's fine.  Dims and Shards are OP perms, so OP SoFo is created to counter them.

Also, I added monotized Shard casting costs to the original post.

That's not true though.  Some monos can outrush denial, immo- and nova-decks soft-counter denial.... Sanc is one of the worst ways to deal with denial in my opinion.  I prefer soft counters to hard ones in general, like Damsels help against Earthquake/Trident.

Offline Jenkar

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000422#msg1000422
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2012, 05:58:22 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
Black Hole is not the only model for altering the impact of existing cards with the addition of new cards.
Sanctuary is a good example (since I think it is balanced despite your disagreement). It decreases the chance that denial would be powerful against a random deck. However it was balanced in its interactions with both Denial (Steal, Early Discord) and with non Denial opponents.

Summary: Everything only ends up OP when you are doing it wrong.
It's being done wrong then.

I don't like Sanctuary as the answer to all Denial.  This example is simplistic but... if someone is running Denial and you don't have Sanctuary you lose.  If you do have Sanctuary you win.  Not good design IMO because it removes strategic decisions from the game and makes it all about deckbuilding choices before the match.

But if you disagree about Sanc that's fine.  Dims and Shards are OP perms, so OP SoFo is created to counter them.

Also, I added monotized Shard casting costs to the original post.
I prefer soft counters to hard ones in general, like Damsels help against Earthquake/Trident.
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And yeah. Sanc doesn't kill discord or dev :v
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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000580#msg1000580
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 01:50:17 am »
Black Hole is not the only model for altering the impact of existing cards with the addition of new cards.
Sanctuary is a good example (since I think it is balanced despite your disagreement). It decreases the chance that denial would be powerful against a random deck. However it was balanced in its interactions with both Denial (Steal, Early Discord) and with non Denial opponents.

Summary: Everything only ends up OP when you are doing it wrong.
It's being done wrong then.

I don't like Sanctuary as the answer to all Denial.  This example is simplistic but... if someone is running Denial and you don't have Sanctuary you lose.  If you do have Sanctuary you win.  Not good design IMO because it removes strategic decisions from the game and makes it all about deckbuilding choices before the match.

But if you disagree about Sanc that's fine.  Dims and Shards are OP perms, so OP SoFo is created to counter them.

Also, I added monotized Shard casting costs to the original post.
I agree Sanctuary is not good design. However it is lacking for a reason other than balance/imbalance.

SoFo was created to give all elements the opportunity of PC. If it had been balanced then it would help weaken Dims and Shards but would not be sufficient to balance them. They would need some card changes themselves to finish the job.

However SoFo was/is not balanced. I do not know if this was intentional (aka doing it wrong) or accidental (a mistake).
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Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000610#msg1000610
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2012, 04:39:05 am »
However SoFo was/is not balanced. I do not know if this was intentional (aka doing it wrong) or accidental (a mistake).
I think it was designed unintentionally overpowered, then hastily undernerfed when its OPness was discovered.
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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000611#msg1000611
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 04:40:05 am »
However SoFo was/is not balanced. I do not know if this was intentional (aka doing it wrong) or accidental (a mistake).
I think it was designed unintentionally overpowered, then hastily undernerfed when its OPness was discovered.
Zanz has stated that when creating cards, he makes them OP at first, then eventually scales them down to balanced levels.

Source=a post he made a long time ago but I can't find

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Re: Monotize some cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=43427.msg1000612#msg1000612
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 04:50:57 am »
you forgot that the weaken up to UP is supposed to be in the devellopment period, and then he buffs it a bit after if necessary :v
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