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Offline zombie0

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390452#msg390452
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2011, 10:04:15 pm »
thought i was on your wavelength all the way till the last post.  then some record scratched and the music stopped.

the biggest limitation is a lack of blocking.  combat is predetermined by what you put down.  shields dont help because if your opponent puts one down, you can decide to not attack and save your creature from the damage.  because of that, tactics will always be lacking, though it does increase the amount of strategy needed.
nope.  blocking is the worst part of MTG.  all decks find ways to avoid combat interaction as much as possible, its too easy to influence.  if i play a creature, i have a plan how to prevent you from blocking it.  kill all your creatures, unblockable, flying etc.  simple stuff really.  only a masochist enjoys standoffs of rows of creatures and taking all day considering the outcome of the attack (especially when blocking has the advantage)

then you shift back and forth about shields.  ELEMENTS shields sit there, one at a time, and offer some defense.  you dont choose to attack or not, its automatic.  are we even talking about MTG shields, or the artifacts/creature abilities/enchantments/instants in play instead?  having to pay attention every second is what makes MTG not casual and not really turn based.  there are a few MTG games out there, may i suggest playing those if you love that playstyle so dearly?

i considered the differences between MTG, Yugi-Oh, DBZ, and lots of other CCGs when i started elements.  it helps to catch on, but at no point did i think "this game should be like that game".  its a slippery slope and, once again, you really should go play that other game if it is so much better and exactly what you like.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390458#msg390458
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2011, 10:19:10 pm »
thought i was on your wavelength all the way till the last post.  then some record scratched and the music stopped.

the biggest limitation is a lack of blocking.  combat is predetermined by what you put down.  shields dont help because if your opponent puts one down, you can decide to not attack and save your creature from the damage.  because of that, tactics will always be lacking, though it does increase the amount of strategy needed.
nope.  blocking is the worst part of MTG.  all decks find ways to avoid combat interaction as much as possible, its too easy to influence.  if i play a creature, i have a plan how to prevent you from blocking it.  kill all your creatures, unblockable, flying etc.  simple stuff really.  only a masochist enjoys standoffs of rows of creatures and taking all day considering the outcome of the attack (especially when blocking has the advantage)

then you shift back and forth about shields.  ELEMENTS shields sit there, one at a time, and offer some defense.  you dont choose to attack or not, its automatic.  are we even talking about MTG shields, or the artifacts/creature abilities/enchantments/instants in play instead?  having to pay attention every second is what makes MTG not casual and not really turn based.  there are a few MTG games out there, may i suggest playing those if you love that playstyle so dearly?

i considered the differences between MTG, Yugi-Oh, DBZ, and lots of other CCGs when i started elements.  it helps to catch on, but at no point did i think "this game should be like that game".  its a slippery slope and, once again, you really should go play that other game if it is so much better and exactly what you like.
Decks do not find ways to avoid combat interaction. They find ways to bias that interaction (give your offense evasion while removing the opponent's evasion). This leads to attempts to bias the ability to bias the ability to bias ... and creates a massive amount of potential interaction. The same is true with the stack. However this 2 active players per turn type of interaction is not suited to an internet based game like EtG. EtG will need another way to continue its increase in its tactics options.
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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390469#msg390469
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2011, 10:33:56 pm »
thought i was on your wavelength all the way till the last post.  then some record scratched and the music stopped.

the biggest limitation is a lack of blocking.  combat is predetermined by what you put down.  shields dont help because if your opponent puts one down, you can decide to not attack and save your creature from the damage.  because of that, tactics will always be lacking, though it does increase the amount of strategy needed.
nope.  blocking is the worst part of MTG.  all decks find ways to avoid combat interaction as much as possible, its too easy to influence.  if i play a creature, i have a plan how to prevent you from blocking it.  kill all your creatures, unblockable, flying etc.  simple stuff really.  only a masochist enjoys standoffs of rows of creatures and taking all day considering the outcome of the attack (especially when blocking has the advantage)

then you shift back and forth about shields.  ELEMENTS shields sit there, one at a time, and offer some defense.  you dont choose to attack or not, its automatic.  are we even talking about MTG shields, or the artifacts/creature abilities/enchantments/instants in play instead?  having to pay attention every second is what makes MTG not casual and not really turn based.  there are a few MTG games out there, may i suggest playing those if you love that playstyle so dearly?

i considered the differences between MTG, Yugi-Oh, DBZ, and lots of other CCGs when i started elements.  it helps to catch on, but at no point did i think "this game should be like that game".  its a slippery slope and, once again, you really should go play that other game if it is so much better and exactly what you like.
i was replying to the OP explaining that what he thought was a lack of balance was actually a higher ratio of strategy : tactics than games he was used to.  is that a bad thing? well depends on what you want out of a game.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390713#msg390713
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2011, 04:11:05 pm »
Well, I'm glad the initial string of rude comments were followed by more thoughtful ones that understand what I was getting at. Unfortunately, I need to vent first.

There seems to be some incorrect assumptions about my original point, so let me clear the air: I am FULLY aware of the auto-mulligan system. I am also aware that an auto-mulligan system is not remotely similar to a user-driven mulligan system. The only rule that the auto-mulligan system takes into account is whether or not you have 0-cost cards in the first hand you are dealt (hey, I actually did my homework before writing something!). By giving that option to the player, you allow them to mulligan if they have 1 pillar/tower, and 6 Fractals in their opening hand, to use one easy example of many. Mulligan doesn't just address the lack of quantum; it addresses all clumps or unlucky draws within your initial hand....unless you automate the process with an overly simplified rule. The notion that this very brief and often easy decision is somehow counterproductive boggles my mind when thinking of how much time is wasted as a result of bad opening draws. Now, if you would like to discuss these differences, I am all ears. But, if you just want to chastise me when, in reality, it is you that should be researching this more, I'll pass.

Ok, now that my annoyance has been vented, there were a lot of other thoughtful comments that I appreciate. In order of appearance:

Fast-paced Advocacy:
Fast-paced action is well and good. It's also not in any way exclusive from balance. For the record, I am not looking for an MtG port, which is why I went through great lengths to avoid comparing the two games in my original post. What EVERY CCG does need, though, is balance, and it's the most challenging part of building a CCG. Unfortunately, the way this game is designed, the "fast-paced" action is really closer to grinding than actual gameplay. The reason I am proposing these changes is so that the spirit of the game (if fast-paced matches are the goal of the developers) can coexist with competitive matches. For the most part, you are dropping cards down and, when you know that the match is decided (which often happens well in advance of actually losing) you resign from the game. The number of matches that come down to critical moves in the waning moments of a contest are a very low percentage, and that is indicative of a larger problem in the game. But, since you would like to compare the game with Magic, let's recall what the first editions of Magic were like compared to the game now. They clearly learned from mistakes early on, especially with game-breaking cards, refined their game, and turned it into the masterpiece it is today. The lesson for us? It's ok to change things.

The Tactic Vs Strategy discussion:
This is a great distinction. Again, I would like to clearly state that I am not advocating this game be more like Magic. However, the strategy aspect of this game is clearly behind the potential I see in it, whereas the tactics (or lack thereof) does play a role in the predetermined results of games.

However, tactics is still second to the notion of hay-makers vs jabs. If the power of cards could be refined so that the placement of one was not so decisive in many scenarios, that would allow a greater flexibility in building decks, along with more potential for competitive matches (note: this doesn't necessarily mean slower matches). In some scenarios, changing the rules of the game may be more appropriate. For example, the limit of 6 per card. By allowing this many cards, you allow people to chain the use of them (e.g., Sundial, Phase Shield, Reverse Time) exacerbating the effects of those cards. By decreasing the limit, this helps increase the value of timing in playing those cards. Another example is the accumulation of quantum taking place at the end of a turn in combination with the effects of Black Hole. By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card. I'm not necessarily proposing these changes; merely providing an example of some approaches to resolving these problems, which do not necessarily involve highly complex decisions within the course of the game. 


In the end, the only thing I am stressing is the increase in competitive matches.

Offline russianspy1234

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390717#msg390717
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2011, 04:20:23 pm »
the game is unbalanced and grindy by its very nature, due to most upgrade cards being strictly better than non upgraded cards.  its as much a part of the game as strategy vs tactics is.  yes a lot of the game is determined by how you and your opponent built your deck and the majority of the rest is determined by the draw.  that is what the game is, and its nice to have something to mindlessly click while watching tv (after spending some amount of time designing the deck).  as more cards are added (especially creatures with targeting abilities), this will get better though
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390720#msg390720
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2011, 04:27:27 pm »
the game is unbalanced and grindy by its very nature, due to most upgrade cards being strictly better than non upgraded cards.  its as much a part of the game as strategy vs tactics is.  yes a lot of the game is determined by how you and your opponent built your deck and the majority of the rest is determined by the draw.  that is what the game is, and its nice to have something to mindlessly click while watching tv (after spending some amount of time designing the deck).  as more cards are added (especially creatures with targeting abilities), this will get better though
And so the wrong mentality perpetuates...
And no creatures aren't going to help you since there is a motherload of CC in this game.
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390725#msg390725
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2011, 04:32:31 pm »
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.
No. If they can't play a card, then either they have no pillars (this won't help them) or they have been hit by a quanta denial card such as devourer. Why would you make this change just to spite quanta denial; which is an amazing aspect of this game?




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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390738#msg390738
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2011, 04:56:44 pm »
the game is unbalanced and grindy by its very nature, due to most upgrade cards being strictly better than non upgraded cards.  its as much a part of the game as strategy vs tactics is.  yes a lot of the game is determined by how you and your opponent built your deck and the majority of the rest is determined by the draw.  that is what the game is, and its nice to have something to mindlessly click while watching tv (after spending some amount of time designing the deck).  as more cards are added (especially creatures with targeting abilities), this will get better though
And so the wrong mentality perpetuates...
And no creatures aren't going to help you since there is a motherload of CC in this game.
creatures with targeted abilities will help because there will more interaction, more possible decisions to make.  the abundance of CC does not hurt this argument, it helps it.  do you firelance the strong attack creature, or the strong ability creature?  or do you save your lance and hope you survive the next two turns because then youll have enough quanta to outright kill your opponent?  the more decisions there are for a player to make, the more potential for tactics there are.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390746#msg390746
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2011, 05:19:35 pm »
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.
No. If they can't play a card, then either they have no pillars (this won't help them) or they have been hit by a quanta denial card such as devourer. Why would you make this change just to spite quanta denial; which is an amazing aspect of this game?
Quanta denial is not an amazing aspect of the game, its the most HORRIBLE aspect of this game.
From a game design standpoint denying the ability of a player to play is the absolute worst you can do.
It also adds to the hard counter aspect of the game.
If by transforming this mechanic of the game some cards get weaker, there is no problem since we can just buff them accordingly or rework them.

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390752#msg390752
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2011, 05:25:03 pm »
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.
No. If they can't play a card, then either they have no pillars (this won't help them) or they have been hit by a quanta denial card such as devourer. Why would you make this change just to spite quanta denial; which is an amazing aspect of this game?
Quanta denial is not an amazing aspect of the game, its the most HORRIBLE aspect of this game.
From a game design standpoint denying the ability of a player to play is the absolute worst you can do.
It also adds to the hard counter aspect of the game.
If by transforming this mechanic of the game some cards get weaker, there is no problem since we can just buff them accordingly or rework them.
Its really not that bad, and why rework whats not broken?
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390753#msg390753
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2011, 05:29:34 pm »
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.
No. If they can't play a card, then either they have no pillars (this won't help them) or they have been hit by a quanta denial card such as devourer. Why would you make this change just to spite quanta denial; which is an amazing aspect of this game?
Quanta denial is not an amazing aspect of the game, its the most HORRIBLE aspect of this game.
From a game design standpoint denying the ability of a player to play is the absolute worst you can do.
It also adds to the hard counter aspect of the game.
If by transforming this mechanic of the game some cards get weaker, there is no problem since we can just buff them accordingly or rework them.
Its really not that bad, and why rework whats not broken?
quanta denial like devourers and black holes isnt that bad, and if you get hit with multiple gravity nymphs you probably deserve to lose.  pillar destruction on the other hand is entirely too easy. between quicksand, explosion, and steal, its far too easy to get rid of your quanta.  an early game quicksand can lock you down entirely, unless you are playing a very limited range of decks and can split between pillars, pendulums, and towers.  after a couple of those, a symple devourer or better yet a discord can lock down whatever pillars you manage to play afterwards, at least long enough for them to draw another quicksand.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390758#msg390758
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2011, 05:43:44 pm »
Quote
By changing it so that quantum is accumulated at the beginning of a turn, you would prevent a complete shutdown of that persons ability to play a card.
+1 for this.
No. If they can't play a card, then either they have no pillars (this won't help them) or they have been hit by a quanta denial card such as devourer. Why would you make this change just to spite quanta denial; which is an amazing aspect of this game?
Quanta denial is not an amazing aspect of the game, its the most HORRIBLE aspect of this game.
From a game design standpoint denying the ability of a player to play is the absolute worst you can do.
It also adds to the hard counter aspect of the game.
If by transforming this mechanic of the game some cards get weaker, there is no problem since we can just buff them accordingly or rework them.
Well said. Particularly:

"From a game design standpoint denying the ability of a player to play is the absolute worst you can do."

 

anything
blarg: