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Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390191#msg390191
« on: September 07, 2011, 08:53:26 am »
So, I started playing this game about a month ago. There were some elements (hyuk) that I enjoyed, and I was really hoping to have found a great online CCG. Unfortunately, the enjoyment of this game is far too hindered by an extreme lack of balance in the cards, and what I've been reading on these forums supports this notion.

I'm guessing some people are already crouched and ready to pounce in defense of their game, but just go read one of the threads on farming FG's and tell me what exactly it means when half of the encounters you run into are best handled by simply ending the game before you have played a single card? A balanced game, a status that Elements can achieve if they work towards it, may put you at a disadvantage based on the cards you have used to build your deck, but in this game you can already have flat out lost before a single card has been drawn. In place of what should be challenging encounters is the monotonous behavior of clicking a button in submission. Not very entertaining or thought-provoking.

Of course, you still have the other half of your other matches remaining. Sadly, another 3rd of those can probably be chucked out the window based on your draw and the fact that, for some unknown reason, the mulligan game mechanic is completely absent. We know (I hope), that in a CCG environment with random card drawing and limitations on cards, that the cards you need to execute your strategy will regularly appear in clumps. When this happens you have very few playing options available, and clicking "Done" repeatedly is a boring way to spend your time. By allowing a mulligan, you can drastically increase the number of playable hands, and provide the player with an interesting decision (assuming the common mulligan trade-off of -1 card) instead of a frustrated sigh. Better yet, they have more fun, which I believe is a big aspect of playing a game.

So, optimistically speaking, let's say we are left with 40% of our matches being playable. That's a relatively poor percentage regardless of what it is we are measuring. And, even within these matches, you can find that a single type of card that you do not have a counter for will essentially seal the game, instead of just changing it. A prime example would be Eternity, a card that could very feasibly appear on the 2nd turn, and rob your opponent of several turns right off the bat. Earthquake, Black Hole, Hope, and so on, all cards that can drastically reduce if not completely eliminate any decisions by the opponent (i.e., yawn). It's a lot of hay-makers and few jabs.

I don't want to make it seem as if nothing is working: the game has a lot of great ideas behind both the concept and mechanics. The bar just need to be set a bit higher concerning playable matches, and balance is the way to do that.

Offline BloodlinE

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390193#msg390193
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 09:13:43 am »
/facepalm

there is a mulligan system ingame you just see it.if you dont draw any pillars/pends use QI it helps when building a deck rng is the god of this game and he says grinding is the best way for $$$ not experimenting with a fail deck.

elements is a great game. deal with it.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390195#msg390195
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 09:20:56 am »
So, I started playing this game about a month ago. There were some elements (hyuk) that I enjoyed, and I was really hoping to have found a great online CCG. Unfortunately, the enjoyment of this game is far too hindered by an extreme lack of balance in the cards, and what I've been reading on these forums supports this notion.
After a comment like that, it's very difficult for me to take anything you say seriously. :) But I will try.

I think that in order for you to post feedback like this, you should first understand the game a bit more. Fast-paced action is clearly one of the main design goals of Elements, and I think it's one of the main reasons why the game is successful. Mechanics like MtG might be cool in real life, but they really suck in an online game because they totally kill the pace and enable these long boring matches.

One example of you not doing your homework is the fact that Elements does have a mulligan (ninja'd), only it happens automatically if needed, without you even noticing it. Why automatically? Because letting players choose would once again make the pace slower.

As for making all matches "playable".. well, that's not how CCG's generally work. There is always certain amount of rock-paper-scissors involved because otherwise it would become a slow chess match that would be really boring for many players who are looking for a faster and more casual gameplay.

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390224#msg390224
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 12:13:21 pm »
I stopped reading when he said there was no mulligan.
Did he say anything important?
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Astrocyte

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390238#msg390238
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 01:09:03 pm »
Guys, there's no reason to be jerks. So Post didn't realize there's already a mulligan, and maybe he doesn't quite get how the game works yet, but does coming here and writing a polite (if not perfect) critique really deserve a snarky dogpile? Yes, people should read the FAQs and stickies, but someone asks for a decksave feature at least once every 10 days and people usually have the decency to just link the Common Feature Requests and peace out (instead of post smart-alecky crap like "did he say anything important?" and "it's a great game deal with it").

adrix89

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390247#msg390247
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 01:34:46 pm »
On-topic,
Does anybody think that rock paper scissor balance of the decks isn't the best solution?

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390249#msg390249
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 01:40:27 pm »
On-topic,
Does anybody think that rock paper scissor balance of the decks isn't the best solution?
You see rock paper scissors in EVERY game. Some games just do a better job of handling it.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390273#msg390273
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 02:43:25 pm »
FGs were designed to be an Unfair opponent. (+2 Mark, +1 Draw and x2 HP) The extreme challenge for the most skilled players. (Platinum Arena now also fills this role with FG powered abilities and extremely powerful deck builds)

AI3 (the last of the fair AI opponents) quickly becomes an easy win with enough experience at deckbuilding and playing.

In pvp everygame is played with a decent expectation of winning.

If you look at the Fair matchups (AI 3, PvP) or only slightly unfair (Silver Arena, AI 4) you will have a better comparison towards what you were expecting. In these areas it is much closer to the MtG version of RPS where Rock has an advantage over Scissors but the game is not over till someone's hp/deck hits 0.

As for card balance: Most of the cards are reasonable balanced compared to each other. It is easy to get lots of false positives when using only subjective anecdotal evidence to judge card balance. Those that are OP are only so by slight margins compared to MtG which is my basis for comparison.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390274#msg390274
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 02:45:48 pm »
The cards aren't balanced because you can only win 40% of the matches against opponents with doubled deck size, doubled draw, tripled mark, and double HP?

If you average it throughout all the competitive decks, about 80% of the games are playable and you win 50% of the time out of all games, including ones that were so boring because you knew you would lose.

adrix89

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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390335#msg390335
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 05:32:04 pm »
On-topic,
Does anybody think that rock paper scissor balance of the decks isn't the best solution?
You see rock paper scissors in EVERY game. Some games just do a better job of handling it.
That is completely incorrect, every good competitive game has an element of interaction and through that interaction you can outskill the opponent even if the stacks are in favor of one player.



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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390341#msg390341
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 05:52:32 pm »
On-topic,
Does anybody think that rock paper scissor balance of the decks isn't the best solution?
You see rock paper scissors in EVERY game. Some games just do a better job of handling it.
That is completely incorrect, every good competitive game has an element of interaction and through that interaction you can outskill the opponent even if the stacks are in favor of one player.
#1)Show me a competitive game that doesnt have rock paper scissors
#2)Skill is a major factor in this game. Take this war match for example  (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,25641.0.html) I was able to win this one because I took all the knowledge I could of the opponents deck (you would not believe the crossreference I had available at any given point in that battle) and barely figured out a strategy that would allow me to win.
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Re: Missing ingredient: Balance https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30699.msg390349#msg390349
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 06:37:26 pm »
heres the thing about elements, and it was a problem i had at first.  there is very little tactics in the game.  there is plenty of strategy, but yes a lot of the game really is decided before you sit down, and another large part is done by the random deal.  the small deck size and allowance of 6 copies allow you to control the second point quite a bit.  the strategy as opposed to tactics?  well thats just a function of the game is designed, if you dont like it MTG is far more tactics over strategy based.
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