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Offline AbsolTopic starter

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Make shards become elemented cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458119#msg458119
« on: February 09, 2012, 06:05:27 am »
I would like to suggest 2 things here.
1. Make shards become elemented cards. The cost should remain :rainbow.
This change is purely cosmetic. Make SoG become :life card, but the casting cost still be 5 :rainbow | 3 :rainbow, for example. SoD become :light, SoR become :time, and so on.
Currently, the only shard affected by this is SoF (creature changed from :rainbow to :gravity) affected by Flooding.

2. Separate the shards and the weapons in the rare spin in Arena. Pharaoh, Arctic Squid, and Miracle can appear in both spins.
There are many new players out there which will generally favor rare weapons for their first spins. Then, there are many old players from Top 50 where the weapons are common, which will favor shards. By separating these two categories, players can choose which rare to get, shards or weapons. Note that this does not increase the winrate of spin in any way, since the spin mechanic is unchanged. (the spin mechanic IIRC is to pick 5 random cards and do the spin)

Good reasoning from everyone, i take this back.

What do you think? Did i miss something?
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards & choice for rare spin in arena https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458121#msg458121
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 06:10:46 am »
1. Why? Is there really a purpose for it? Or just to let the gravity shard die to drowning? It really seems cosmetic and not necessary.

2. No. With both shards and weapons and rares in rare spins, the chances of getting what a player wants is decreased. This makes rare spins a bit harder to get. Players can still choose what they want in rare spins nowadays.

Offline AbsolTopic starter

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards & choice for rare spin in arena https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458122#msg458122
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 06:13:59 am »
1. Why? Is there really a purpose for it? Or just to let the gravity shard die to drowning? It really seems cosmetic and not necessary.

2. No. With both shards and weapons and rares in rare spins, the chances of getting what a player wants is decreased. This makes rare spins a bit harder to get. Players can still choose what they want in rare spins nowadays.
1. Since the shards generally fits the thematic of the elements, why not? The balance is not disrupted, and SoF can destroy the Flooding anyway (if any)
2. I don't know how it decrease the winrate. All this do is to let the players choose between shards and weapons.
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Offline teffy

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards & choice for rare spin in arena https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458155#msg458155
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 12:12:52 pm »
Quote
(the spin mechanic IIRC is to pick 5 random cards and do the spin)
Yes, I also remember that.
Quote
Note that this does not increase the winrate of spin in any way, since the spin mechanic is unchanged
Not true. The spinner chooses from a smaller pool of cards, 8 cards for shards now (or 11 with Pharaoh, Miracle, Squid). The chance that there are two or more copies of a card among the 5 chosen random cards is higher, and that means higher win rate.

It also means that the chance for a rare is higher, when you click "Shards".
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards & choice for rare spin in arena https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458313#msg458313
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 09:15:51 pm »
1) Unless there is an actual game-shifting change in balance, I see no reason to change a Shard's Element without changing anything else. SoF's dying from Flooding only slightly weakens the card w/Fractal or Mitosis and not much else.  Theme-wise, Shards represent the "splashable" or "mutable" type cards of Other - they can be put in any deck but work better with certain Elements (this is somewhat similar to generic Items in RPGs usable by all players such as Holy Water - a Light entity would probably benefit from the healing, while a Death entity would be hurt.)

2) Already explained by the above posts - rares are intended to be rare, and separating weapons and shards allows players to pick and choose what cards they want, which in turn makes them easier to obtain. I disagree with this suggestion.

Offline AbsolTopic starter

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458421#msg458421
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 02:54:41 am »
1. SoF is currently OP. By adding a weakness to Flooding (and gives minor buff to it) could help balancing it.

:rainbow element is supposed to be the cards that really won't fit in any other elements IMO (honestly, cards like Short Bow could go to :air while hammer could go to :earth or :gravity, but those are another story). Shards are splashable, true, but they do have affinity towards different elements (else why people say SoG as :life's shard? SoF as :gravity's shard?). As such, they don't fit in the element :rainbow.
As for your comparation to RPG items, Holy Water is usable by everyone, but still in Light element. Fire Bomb is another example. Ice Fang. Splashable but have a certain affinity.

Other than SoF, the change is purely cosmetic because of ^. I see that Zanz will make 1 shard for every element. Why not make them in-element cards as well?

2. Yes, i see your reasoning and i admit, i overlook that one. I take this back.
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Make shards become elemented cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=36460.msg458428#msg458428
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 03:18:31 am »
1. SoF is currently OP. By adding a weakness to Flooding (and gives minor buff to it) could help balancing it.
SoF's repeatable PC-on-stick potentially outdoes all PC cards in the game, save for certain situations where the 'instant' speed of Explosion or Steal would be needed.  Making SoF vulnerable to 1 more card in the game's ~1200 is small dent in it's strength. A more appropriate nerf would be an overhaul of the card's ability and stats (I've proposed one on the card thread) or a remake of the card entirely.
Just because a card has a counter does not meant it is necessarily balanced.
Quote
:rainbow element is supposed to be the cards that really won't fit in any other elements IMO (honestly, cards like Short Bow could go to :air while hammer could go to :earth or :gravity, but those are another story). Shards are splashable, true, but they do have affinity towards different elements (else why people say SoG as :life's shard? SoF as :gravity's shard?). As such, they don't fit in the element :rainbow.

Other than SoF, the change is purely cosmetic because of ^. I see that Zanz will make 1 shard for every element. Why not make them in-element cards as well?
Rainbow in Elements is defined by three categories:
Absence of Element - Complete lack of Elemental affinity or preference, usually common equipment.
E.g. Short Sword, Shield, Relic
Forum Example : Void PseudoElement Series
Filling All Elements - Has the potential to interact with all Elements without any specific thematic bias.
E.g. Quantum Pillar. Nova could be justified as being Entropy due to being a scientific concept, which Entropy tends to represent along actual Entropy and fantasy Chaos.
FOrum Example : Mirror PseudoElement Series
Mutable/Stylistic - Cards that can be potentially used by any Element, but favor one element due to certain justifications in theme or balance.
E.g. The difference between Owl's Eye and a regular Short Bow is potentially the difference in craftmanship/skill/rarity.  While Short Bow is Other because of sheer genericness (see Absence of Element), Air Elementals are naturally able to manipulate the wind and could fire more accurate arrows. (Damage bonus))

Shards are Mutable/Stylistic - while they provide a semblance of Elemental Affinity (hence certain Elements will prefer them more), they are all magical artifacts that do not outright proclaim their loyalty to an Element (Similar to how many Elementals do not necessarily stick with their Element all the time.). One way of describing them would be as generic structures, with some responding more to certain Elements similar to how Real Life Elements will react better in certain combinatioms. They also boost the "rainbow" deck archetype of the game and are one of the few thematic links that Other actually has. (Similarly, Pendulums boost the duo-deck archetypes of the game by being able to shift between two types of quanta.

 

blarg: