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More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474945#msg474945
« on: March 28, 2012, 01:30:47 am »
Last weekend I was in a discussion and mentioned how I dislike cards being nerfed. Then I thought a bit about this.

And something to think about. There will always be something frustrating to fight against. Fire decks were frustrating? Ok, nerf them and they are no more frustrating. But now (suppose) mono Darkness decks are frustrating. Nerf them, and now Light stall is frustrating, nerf it and other deck is frustrating, and so on. Whats the point? Instead of getting more strategies, we get the ones we have downgraded. Its the wrong way to a card game, I think.
This is true. Mere frustration is not sufficient.

However let us consider for a moment the structure of a metagame. A metagame is composed of 2 important parts: The current deck distribution (what percentage of the time is each deck used) and the marginal player (not an actual player but rather a result of people adjusting to the deck distribution). Each deck has a different set of win rates against each other deck type in the metagame. The marginal player computes the total win rate of using that deck given the current deck distribution. If a higher total win rate is discovered, the deck distribution shifts to include more of those decks until its advantage shrinks to zero.

Next lets consider that one of the main tools for EtG to provide quality entertainment is for it to have variety. This means that lopsided deck distributions are detrimental to the goal of EtG. We see reason to make changes to cards if they increase the number of decks that are competing in the metagame by a significant amount.
Yes, Im convinced that having variety is a good thing, but Im also convinced that messing with people's deck is a bad thing, even more considering how expensive is to upgrade a complete deck. So maybe we can together think about options to increase variety without nerfing cards. Lets brainstorm a bit.

1st, people use to say that cards balance should be based on PvP, and I think its correct. This means that the player deck in PvE doesnt really need to suffer the nerfs effect. Like, there is already a mechanism that downgrade all your upgraded cards when you go for PvP I. I suppose that coding a way to adopt the nerfed version of a card shouldnt really be difficult. Lets use SN as example. If I go for PvP (any of them), my SNs will produce singularities if chained (here is where the nerf is supposed to work anyway). If I use a speedbow vs AI3, I can use my SNs as usual (AI3 wont be annoyed at all ;) ). Having 2 active versions can be a bit confusing but I dont see this as a big problem. Changing a card without any warning is also confusing to people that dont visit the forum. So this is an option that have the job done and doesnt cause trouble in PVE, in the farming routine (which we know is real).

Another thing I think about is the Arena. Sometimes its really repetitive. But here, and specially in higher leagues, cards have powers they dont really have in PvP, due to double deck and double draw. Nerfing cards based on arena decks doesnt seem a good solution, but yes, we want more variety. Them I remembered about another card game I used to play. To add more variety to a league-like thing, each week a group of cards were banned. I think that, if 5 cards (possibly the most used last week) were banned each week, this would increase variety a lot. Of course limitations like this are usually not good, but its better than having cards nerfed because of AI using them in PvE. Another option could be creating some other limitations, like forbid 'other' cards, allow a maximum of 4 elements per deck, choose some random elements for the player to use and not allow cards from the others... Of course Im not suggesting all these being cumulative. But if everyone keep using the same decks, lets limit deckbuilding a bit, instead of changing cards that we can use.

And of course, if there are more options in PvE, Arena wouldnt be a big problem. Lets face it, we could use more AI2 and AI3, at least 40 of each. I also love how AI4 is well designed to have unique games, and I think this could be better explored. Im thinking about a customizable opponent. Not like in the trainer, where you can load a deck to it. Lets imagine it. There is a button in the game interface that calls another screen, like the Arena one. There, I can choose opponent HP (50-200 in 25 or 50 gaps), if he has double draw (AI3, AI4 or FG scheme), if he uses a random deck (like AI5), a strategy deck (coming from a fixed strategy poll we can create), or random, if he has upgraded cards and how many, mark (1x, 2x, 3x), pet (allowed or not), etc. It would be fun, and according to the difficulty, the rewards could increase, maybe even allowing upped spins for the higher ones. I would love something like this.

Well, this is it, Im throwing some ideas, I would like to see some from you :)

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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474953#msg474953
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 01:57:17 am »
Er, shouldn't this be in game suggestions/feedback? Admittedly, that section seems to get a lot less attention, and this thread could be used to offer opinions instead of concrete suggestions...

Anyways, my two :electrum
You give a lot of ideas to think about.
The problem with your first idea, of a dual system of nerfed and unnerfed cards, is that it creates an even bigger problem in understanding the mechanics of the game. You'll understand it, and I'll understand it, but it'll be even more complicated to learn than the current game. You acknowledge this. The difference with that and the forum is that the forum really is Zanz's method of communicating with the player base. The forum serves as his announcements page. (There are far more lurkers than posters here- its a lot more than just the vocal community members who visit here) I agree with the conclusion of your argument, that PvE shouldn't suffer from PvP effects, but if that's the case then it becomes a slippery slope argument- which version of cards should be kept? What about the old OP sundials? Why not just give players infinite cash? Etc... I'm not saying that you meant that, but I think there's a thin line there.

For your second point, I agree, entirely- banning certain cards except for pillars/pendulums each week would definitely improve variety. However, it makes the Arena even harder to use for the newbie who doesn't have the cardpool to build a variety of decks. So there's both pros and cons there.

For your third idea- Definitely. The game could use something like this. To expand on it, maybe we could have AI-2 and AI-3 become parts of new quests and challenges- like beating two AI versions or a consecutive string with the same deck, and having each AI use a deck that adapts to yours. It would be tough to implement, though, and this is pretty common as a suggestion on the suggestions/feedback page.



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Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474967#msg474967
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2012, 02:50:10 am »
I think the thread is in the right section, mate, game discussion. Like you said, Im not really suggesting these, more like gathering opinions to refine something that is worthy suggesting ;)

Agreed about the forum being method of communicating, but these dual cards (PvP x PvE) wouldnt be something secret. Lurkers and poster would still know it by the forums. And it could be a nice add (or replacement) for that tip of the year 2009, lol. But you have a point about Sundial, although I never used the old version. What I would like to avoid is to make grinding, which is a constant and mostly painful part of the game even worse by nerfing cards people use. Maybe I wouldnt really care if the rewards were bigger, or if the costs to upgrade were lower. Maybe the problem about grinding is not how hard it is, but how much its needed. Would like to see more opinions.

About the arena, I dont really think that a ban of a few cards would cause a real havoc even among the newbies... you know, you just need to use 30 of your cards. But maybe the restrictions shouldnt affect the Bronze League, although Im not sure if it really matters. Anyway, we can remember that people dont need to submit decks everyday. Well, but this is open to discussion. Pros and cons, almost everything has them. If we were going to add some deck building limitations, which ones would you see as better ones?

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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474974#msg474974
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2012, 03:09:39 am »
Digesting a lot of this at the moment, but I do disagree with the arena nerf.  Try and remember, Platinum is supposed to be harder than FG's, it's supposed to be the most difficult game mode.  And even though when it does exist, super annoying decks (like sosac-stalls) are beatable. 
Back on topic: the Arena still has a pretty good variety.  I farm plat a decent amount and the oracle cards really help with giving diversity.  There are a few deck "castes" but there are lots inside that.  Healing: You have monolife, 500hp deckouts (pretty rare), vampires, just plain sanctuaries.  Rushes are speedbows and immorushes (not very diverse, but pretty easily countered).  There is also novelty decks, and then deck counters.  Nowadays, lots of people just try and make decks to get a thumb up and be original.  The last 5 times I've seen a death deck (that could have VERY easily incorporated sosac), only 2 had it in, this includes rushes, stalls (bonewall instead of sosac), just plain poisondecks, and so on.  I agree with the nerfing of the PvP (although I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to implement) but all PvE is fine as it is.  Only complaint is that Ai4's should definetly be expanded on.  Basically nobody farms them, and they aren't fun enough to warrant attention away from PvP.
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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474978#msg474978
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2012, 03:21:58 am »
1)
Balancing is done with PvP both direct and indirect PvP (arena)
AI decks are adjusted to a consistent difficulty once the cards have been balanced.

Summary: Cards that are OP in PvP are nerfed. AI decks are weakened to rebalance PvE. Cards do not need an inelegant dual nature design.

2)
Arena is PvP. It is complicated indirect PvP but still PvP. However there are already deck restrictions in that format so I see no problem with utilizing deck restrictions to add variety. However we cannot use this as a club to block the powerful decks. Platinum Arena is meant to be the toughest fight there is. It would not be the toughest fight if the top decks were banned. Imbalance in Arena does still require rebalancing. However it might be wise to look at the powers to see if changing the powers a bit would be a better fix.

3)
Good ideas.
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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg474981#msg474981
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2012, 03:26:28 am »
Going off on the third point, I'd love if there was some option like that. In gemcraft, you got extra exp and score for extra challenges, so perhaps you could add extra challenges while fighting AI-0 to AI-3. For example, giving them a double mark increases your reward by 10, giving them double dexterity increases your electrum reward by 15...etc...

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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg475217#msg475217
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 12:40:38 am »
Can a mod maybe return this to general discussion? I would like to gather some more opinions there, thanks.

Digesting a lot of this at the moment, but I do disagree with the arena nerf.  Try and remember, Platinum is supposed to be harder than FG's, it's supposed to be the most difficult game mode.  And even though when it does exist, super annoying decks (like sosac-stalls) are beatable. 
Back on topic: the Arena still has a pretty good variety.  I farm plat a decent amount and the oracle cards really help with giving diversity.  There are a few deck "castes" but there are lots inside that.  Healing: You have monolife, 500hp deckouts (pretty rare), vampires, just plain sanctuaries.  Rushes are speedbows and immorushes (not very diverse, but pretty easily countered).  There is also novelty decks, and then deck counters.  Nowadays, lots of people just try and make decks to get a thumb up and be original.  The last 5 times I've seen a death deck (that could have VERY easily incorporated sosac), only 2 had it in, this includes rushes, stalls (bonewall instead of sosac), just plain poisondecks, and so on.  I agree with the nerfing of the PvP (although I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to implement) but all PvE is fine as it is.  Only complaint is that Ai4's should definetly be expanded on.  Basically nobody farms them, and they aren't fun enough to warrant attention away from PvP.
If a few cards were banned from Arena, Platinum would still be incredibly hard. I myself havent grind Platinum recently, but I was told that people are complaining, and this is something that has influence in which cards zanz decides to nerf. In fact, dunno if its the case, but, if it is, I think that removing some of them from arena is better than nerfing. Also consider that according to my idea: cards arent permanently banned; just a few are banned each time; they arent completelly banned (people that get them from Oracle of course can use them (I know, I havent said this before).

About the AI4, I really think palying them is fun, the real problem is that games are long and the rewards arent good enough.

1)
Balancing is done with PvP both direct and indirect PvP (arena)
AI decks are adjusted to a consistent difficulty once the cards have been balanced.

Summary: Cards that are OP in PvP are nerfed. AI decks are weakened to rebalance PvE. Cards do not need an inelegant dual nature design.

2)
Arena is PvP. It is complicated indirect PvP but still PvP. However there are already deck restrictions in that format so I see no problem with utilizing deck restrictions to add variety. However we cannot use this as a club to block the powerful decks. Platinum Arena is meant to be the toughest fight there is. It would not be the toughest fight if the top decks were banned. Imbalance in Arena does still require rebalancing. However it might be wise to look at the powers to see if changing the powers a bit would be a better fix.

3)
Good ideas.

Can you please explain why we should consider arena as PvP? I see elements of both PvP and PvE in there, but PvE elements are more present. Also, can you explain what do you mean by "AI decks are adjusted to a consistent difficulty once the cards have been balanced"? I dont see AI decks being adjusted, and the card nerf itself its just not enough to adjust. For example, Explosion was nerfed. For players decks that use it, the nerf was probably much more effective than to Hermes or other FGs, which have 3x mark.

I agree that dual nature is not something elegant, but this is not enough reason to not implement it. I could support it, once it helps the players. Cards need nothing, players need grind-a-lot.

About Arena, like I said to Laxadarap, Platinum league should still be very strong, much harder than FGs. I dont intend make it easy. Maybe the harder part of banning cards is that we would probably need specific cards banned to each league, although it could still be a good thing, we could add no ban to bronze league. But of course I would like to hear about the powers changing you mentioned. Talk a bit about what you have thought, maybe I can help to develop the idea.

Going off on the third point, I'd love if there was some option like that. In gemcraft, you got extra exp and score for extra challenges, so perhaps you could add extra challenges while fighting AI-0 to AI-3. For example, giving them a double mark increases your reward by 10, giving them double dexterity increases your electrum reward by 15...etc...
Yep, good point. The idea would help with the painful grinding. Not only because there are more options, but also because you could tune your grinding better and maximize your results, according to the deck you are using. The electrum increment needs to be proportional, of course. Something we can think about.

But first, if we were going to add this customizable opponent thing, which options would you like to see? Any ideas I havent mentioned?

Thanks all for the opinions.

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Re: More variety please. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37806.msg475221#msg475221
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 12:58:29 am »
Wasn't there something like different arenas in the old old elements?

Well perhaps besides the arena options, there could be:
Your opponent starts off with a pet on the field
All your opponent's permanents are permanently protected
All your opponent's creatures do more damage
You start battle off at 50% health
You only draw every other turn

But those are pretty OP lawlz.

 

blarg: