*Author

Offline DemagogTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2557
  • Reputation Power: 40
  • Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • New to Elements
Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49653#msg49653
« on: April 07, 2010, 09:00:37 am »
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that miracle is overpowered. Twelve quanta equals one less than full health. Pretty cheap considering how easy it is to get twelve light quanta (typically two turns). Not many decks can dish out fifty damage a turn. Add in some SoD's and hope and there's almost no way anyone could bring your life down to nil. So let's discuss some ways to balance miracle. Here's what I've got:

Option 1
-When miracle is played, you get a miracle token. It's a permanent that can't be targeted. For each miracle token you possess, the effectiveness of your next miracle decreases. The amount could be whatever really, but let's just say it's  1/7 less effective for each one you own (about 14%).

Option 2
-Again, miracle tokens are created when miracle is played. This time, they act like flooding/inundation by draining a certain amount of light quanta you possess at the end of your turn. Depending on how harsh you want to make it, the you could come up with a few formulas for how much quanta to drain. For instance, it could be exactly like inundation and drain three light quanta (or however much seems fair). Another option would be to increase the amount drained by each one depending on how many you have already played. An example would be: "Drain x light quanta at the end of each turn. X is the amount of miracle tokens you possess." This could be altered if that seems too cheap... perhaps x+1. The first one is probably better though. It would basically be x2 for each one you own (one token means one drained, two tokens means four drained, three means nine, etc). The latter is somewhat harsher. It would be two drained for one, six drained for two, twelve drained for three, etc. It's really just x2+x.

Anyway, post comments or other ideas.

Offline Amilir

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 316
  • Reputation Power: 0
  • Amilir hides under a Cloak.
  • New to Elements
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49654#msg49654
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2010, 09:09:41 am »
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that miracle is overpowered.
No, I really don't think we can.

Offline Kamietsu

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3228
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 47
  • Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.Kamietsu is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • Old to Elements
  • Awards: Spell Art Competition WinnerWinner of the MASH-UP CompetitionFunny Card Competition WinnerWinner of
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49668#msg49668
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2010, 10:31:39 am »
I'm pretty sure we can all agree that miracle is overpowered.
No, I really don't think we can.
I can agree, however, with Amilir.
╔╦╦═╦══╦╗  ( ̄ー ̄) --Snorlax says:
║═╣╬║║║║║    Eat your shower, brush your toothpaste, take your teeth.
╚╩╩╩╩╩╩╩╝

Offline jmizzle7

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3058
  • Reputation Power: 34
  • jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • I'm kind of a big deal. People know me.
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerSS Competition #1 1stCard Design Competition Winner
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49671#msg49671
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2010, 10:40:15 am »
If Miracle is overpowered, then I guess I missed its overwhelming presence in top 50 decks and PvP. Wait... ::)

Offline DemagogTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2557
  • Reputation Power: 40
  • Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.Demagog soars like the Phoenix, unable to be repressed.
  • New to Elements
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49672#msg49672
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2010, 10:44:15 am »
Getting worked up over a figure of speech...

How is it not overpowered? It's cheap (cost) and it "fully" restores you up to six times per game. Has it just been around so long that yall fail to see the problem?

Be a little more clear, Jmizzle. I'm not sure what you're saying.

Offline Glitch

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3730
  • Reputation Power: 65
  • Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.Glitch walks among the Immortals, legends and guardians of all time.
  • Awards: 1st Trials - Master of LifeElements Short Story Competition WinnerPoetry in the Spirit of Elements
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49677#msg49677
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2010, 11:21:15 am »
Alright, miracle isn't overpowered for one reason.  Light has no creature control.  So even if you heal yourself to full health, you've still got those creatures swarming at you.

Now, the T50 logic used earlier isn't fair.  Almost all T50 decks are rainbow, and miracle does not belong in a rainbow deck.

I would however like to point out how many FG decks exploit rainbow as their only challenging aspect.

Offline jmizzle7

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3058
  • Reputation Power: 34
  • jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • I'm kind of a big deal. People know me.
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerSS Competition #1 1stCard Design Competition Winner
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49830#msg49830
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2010, 07:59:30 pm »
Okay, I'll be more clear. First, what I said earlier, with qualifying tags to boot:

[sarcasm]
Quote
If Miracle is overpowered, then I guess I missed its overwhelming presence in top 50 decks and PvP. Wait... ::)
[/sarcasm]

If Miracle is overpowered, then why is it in only a handful of decks in the top 50 (excluding farms with Miracle in them, obviously) and in the PvP metagame? Usually when something is overpowered, everybody flocks to use it, creating a noticeable skew in terms of card usage. And when everybody is using one specific card in nearly every deck, the game is not balanced. Zanz takes the card usage statistics and uses them to determine which cards need to be nerfed/buffed in order to balance the game more. Miracle is not one of these cards. It costs 15 :light, and 12 :light upped. That's a whole lot of quanta. What you are missing is that if you are playing mono Light and you have entered "Miracle Mode," you have given up the option to play any other cards in your hand to save quanta in order to cast Miracle as soon and often as possible. This is another good (and quite practical) reason that Miracle is not overpowered.

Gl1tch, the top 50 logic is perfectly fair. Some of the rainbows in the top 50 are large time mark rainbows that do take one copy of Miracle. But you are right about the fact that Miracle doesn't really belong in smaller (30-45 cards) rainbows. Why? Because of two reasons: there are cheaper, better cards that are more helpful in beating a false god, and because Miracle is often too expensive to cast to include it in a deck. Sure, Supernovas make it easier, but how many games do you draw all of your Supernovas and Miracle and enough card drawing to win?

Wisemage

  • Guest
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49845#msg49845
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2010, 08:23:52 pm »
gonna agree with Jmizzle on this one.  Miracle is not overpowered.  It might be pretty dman annoying if someone was packing 6 but since light has zero creature control, they cant stop your attacks (hope aside, since killing RoL are easy and using lucifren just doesnt happen)

WHat you are really asking is to nerf a card that works well in a niche deck (not that it doesnt work in others, but you dont see rainbows use 6 miracles).  Sounds like a good idea to me [/sarcasm]

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49846#msg49846
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2010, 08:26:00 pm »
Miracle is a bit more powerful than most cards, but then it's a rare. If a rare is not a little bit more powerful then there is no point for it to be rare. I don't agree that is overpowered. Sure, a light deck can use it to revive many times, but it drains all light quanta, so it slows down the deck to make up for its usefulness. For a non-light deck, its cost is too high that only 1 or 2 is acceptable in any deck. So, I wouldn't really say miracle is overpowered.

Gentleg

  • Guest
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49922#msg49922
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2010, 10:33:21 pm »
i have very rarely if ever seen a miracle used that saved them to the point where they won.

dragonhuman

  • Guest
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49923#msg49923
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 10:36:43 pm »
i've seen it a lot where miracle saves them, or just harrases me a bunch.

miracle seems overpowered but do to the cost/ drain of quantum it isn't that overpowered.

its definetly overpowered when combined with shards and stoned skin

Offline Essence

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4340
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 57
  • Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Voice of the Oracle -- Jezzie's Pimp -- Often Gone
  • Awards: 2nd Trials - Master of Water1st Trials - Master of WaterFG Deck-Designer - The OutcastsShard Madness! Competition WinnerEpic 3 Card Design Competition WinnerElder Recruiter
Re: Let's Balance Miracle! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4979.msg49978#msg49978
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 12:19:29 am »
JMizzle7 ser[/i], not estar.]is right. 

Miracle is strong, but it's not overpoweringly strong.  Generally speaking, board control is much more important than HP totals (except for the differences between 1HP and 0HP, of course) -- and it's not that often that Miracle gives you the time you need to establish board control.  If you didn't have it last turn, you're probably not going to get it after a Miracle has given you an extra 2-6 turns to try.


If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

 

anything
blarg: