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Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg48603#msg48603
« on: April 05, 2010, 03:25:50 am »
The amount of farming you have to do in this game to make cash for upgrades is absolutely ridiculous.    Playing against a computer ai OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER just so you can compete against other upgraded decks is extremely mind numbingly BORING!!!  Not to mention with each patch, they become harder and harder, decreasing your chances for an already extremely limited reward.  Your slots are tighter than Vegas!  Please either increase the pvp rewards or increase the chance to win upgraded cards or SOMETHING.  This is SOOOOO LAME.   

I don't understand the concept of farming at all, from a game design standpoint.  Why choose to make a game more tedious and boring and imbalanced over more entertaining and competitive???  Fighting against other players is way more entertaining than grinding predictable computer AI, and Im guessing 90% of the people who play this game have no where near the time required to make a fully upgraded deck.  At least not within any reasonable time frame.

Oh yes and it would be great if you could fix the bug where actions become unavailable after clicking cancel.  Also incredibly annoying.

Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg48626#msg48626
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 04:10:13 am »
I absolutely agree that farming is horribly tedious and boring. My solution to this is to make repeatable "challenges" that can earn you lots of money; those would be more fun than grinding.

But... Are you only grinding AI3? If that's the case, make an unupped rainbow godkiller deck and grind AI5. MUCH faster.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

Offline killsdazombies

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg48637#msg48637
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 04:37:45 am »
The amount of farming you have to do in this game to make cash for upgrades is absolutely ridiculous.    Playing against a computer ai OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER just so you can compete against other upgraded decks is extremely mind numbingly BORING!!!  Not to mention with each patch, they become harder and harder, decreasing your chances for an already extremely limited reward.  Your slots are tighter than Vegas!  Please either increase the pvp rewards or increase the chance to win upgraded cards or SOMETHING.  This is SOOOOO LAME.   

I don't understand the concept of farming at all, from a game design standpoint.  Why choose to make a game more tedious and boring and imbalanced over more entertaining and competitive???  Fighting against other players is way more entertaining than grinding predictable computer AI, and Im guessing 90% of the people who play this game have no where near the time required to make a fully upgraded deck.  At least not within any reasonable time frame.

Oh yes and it would be great if you could fix the bug where actions become unavailable after clicking cancel.  Also incredibly annoying.
I agree, i dont like doing it at all, *your last thing is not a bug its intentional* i find that grinding is just boring and horrid but fighting fgs is fun, you learn to hate some *rainbow & sisme* and you find ways to beat the crap outa other players in pvp.

PhantomFox

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg48664#msg48664
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 06:23:34 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't grinding a necessary evil for all 'endless' games?  If you don't have a goal, there's no reason to play.  To make the goal last, you make it far away.  To reach the goal you need to make progress.  To progress, you use the most efficient manner.  Which leads to grinding.  Sure, you can put in more quests, but for the most part, endgame = grind.

Offline pepokish

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg48691#msg48691
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 08:11:44 am »
PhantomFox is right.  From a psychological standpoint, grinding is a fairly effective way to keep players playing.  I can guarantee you that all games are set up to have players "grind" -- you just may not realize it.  Even Bloodshadow's suggestion is a type of grinding.  "Repeatable challenges" is the exact definition of the game as it is right now. 

Aside from that, Elements is set up extremely akin to casino-type games, drawing on the human tendency toward obsessive addiction.  Think about the incredible simplicity of games at casinos; and yet, gamboling is a huge problem, worldwide.

I think what you really want are more stimulating rewards at an increased rate -- not less grinding.

If you still don't get it, you can always just find another game to play.  (:

Some articles which may be of interest to you:
The Psychology of Gamboling (http://www.research-horizons.cam.ac.uk/features/the-psychology-of-gambling.aspx)
Behavioral Game Design (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_design.php?page=1)

Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49093#msg49093
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 02:02:39 am »
I have been killing false gods with a rainbow deck for quite a while.  Beating gods after reading this forum is not a difficult task.  And I disagree completely with PhantomFox and peopkish.  Peopkish, are you a game designer and a psychologist?  I don't need a lecture from you about game design, as I have obtained my own education in such quite a long time ago, and have been playing games for possibly longer than you have been alive.  And yes what I really want is LESS GRINDING.  The rewards to me are secondary compared with the nature of the grind in this game, but could use some improvement as well.  Grinding may be 'fairly effective' (interesting choice of words) but its a terrible way to keep players playing your game.  You are most definitely wrong about grinding being necessary for endless games.  I can assume the only reason you think so is because many many games use this 'feature' or lack thereof, to keep players playing.  There is absolutely no reason to make 'progress' as you call it boring and repetitive.   With a little bit of creativity there are many other options to a game designer.(no offense meant to Zanzarino)   I also seriously doubt that speeding up the progress in the game would have any adverse effect on the number of players.  If anything, more people might be attracted to the game due to the fact that repetitive grinding isn't the entire base for progression, as well as keeping players around longer who do have upgraded decks and want to continue playing, but don't want to continue fighting the same dumb AI again and again.

Why does end game = grind?  Only because it has been made to be so.
End game could just as easily be = player vs player competition. (which in my opinion is the much more entertaining aspect of the game)

Ive made my rainbow deck, Ive faced the same computer AI over and over and I cannot see how anyone can really have fun playing against the computer at this point, however if you want to upgrade more cards, its really the only option for doing so.

The gambling article you suggested has zero relevance to my point, I only mentioned the slot machine, because I think its a terrible method of card dispersion.  I also do not see how this game is akin to casino games, or set up in any way similar, other than the slot machine card allowance.
What game doesn't try to draw on human tendency towards addiction?  Are you suggesting that Elements was designed to rob people of their pocketbooks?  Are you suggesting this game is incredibly simple?  Elements is causing worldwide addiction problems????  Also I'm sure you were unaware, but gamboling means to skip and play and frolic about.  If in fact people worldwide were addicted to Gamboling, I bet this world would be a much better place.

The game design article describes perfectly whats going on in this game in the section titled  'How to make players Quit' so thanks for contradicting your own point.  Grinding will never attract players to a game, it will only cause them to leave.  How is this a benefit for the game as a whole?

"If they've just gone up a level and know that they have an hour of play before anything interesting happens, their motivation will be low relative to all the other activities they could be doing."

The other situation that can lead to quitting is the sharp drop in rate of reward which I discussed in the chimpanzee example. Just like motivation, reward is relative. The value of the current reward is compared to the value of the previous rewards. If the current reward is 10 times the last one, it will have a big impact on the participant. If the current reward is weaker than experience has led them to believe, the player will experience frustration and anger.

Hence my own current feelings.  I just love beating a false god, winning nothing, then fighting rainbow for 20 minutes, losing again, beating another false god, winning no cards, beating another and finally winning a card, only its not even worth the cost of a card I can actually use....WHEE!!   Oh the ups and downs of the slot machine.

I would also like to add that the pvp rewards are incredibly skewed towards being beneficial only to new players.  Once you have an upgraded deck and a high score, you rarely win more than 40 coins or so from a match, and if you beat a skilled player you still get unupgraded cards.





akromat

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49263#msg49263
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 04:04:20 pm »
Pyros, I'm going to have to say that your attitude seems to childish to believe what you say about being educated on game design/game theory. You clearly can't even properly grasp at concepts as simple as "end game" and the need for farming. At no point in any of this thread did you offer one piece of constructive advice. Do you truly want less grinding? Quit. If you want to offer constructive criticism and support it with real examples, I'd actually like to hear you out. Specifically with regards to:

With a little bit of creativity there are many other options to a game designer.

icybraker

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49266#msg49266
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 04:12:24 pm »
Hey, Pyro.

I don't want to bore you with an excessively long argument about how wrong you are, or insult you with an excessively profane rant. So I guess I'll do this the easy way.

If you don't like the game, leave.

We don't need people who do nothing but complain and accuse.

Do us all a favor and kindly show yourself out.

Offline killsdazombies

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49271#msg49271
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 04:25:13 pm »
Hey, Pyro.

I don't want to bore you with an excessively long argument about how wrong you are, or insult you with an excessively profane rant. So I guess I'll do this the easy way.

If you don't like the game, leave.

We don't need people who do nothing but complain and accuse.

Do us all a favor and kindly show yourself out.
I kinda agree with him, i still like the game and want to play with it but there's a little to much farming, its gotten less with 5 per spin match and the oracle but like a reward increase would be better or upgrade card decrease and people like pyro would be happier.

standizzle

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49295#msg49295
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 07:01:41 pm »
before you read this... know that i am not ranting... but i read this post randomly and due to responces... felt it necessary to speak on this topic. i MOSTLY do enjoy this game... and ive already gotten 10+ people to try it... however.

pyro is alot more right than you think.

the creative things he might be insinuating(spelling) are more gameplay modes, that possibly give different rewards. right now, there is 3 gameplay modes basically that i can break into catagory. face ai0-3(i lump them together because of the sheer easy'ness about them), pvp, and t50/ai5/fg. a new player after 1-3 hours can be going at ai3 and probably the next day, top50.. case in point. me. :) after 1-2 days, HALF of the games game modes are rendered useless... USELESS. and once you get to the point of FG/ai5.... you basically have those two, and pvp. not much of a choice ..... now is it? all which give the same rewards until you get to FG's.... which you then have to beat fg's, to get even a shot at a 10-15% card win.... and we all know how long it takes to get to a win percentage of even 20-30% with a unupped deck... and even a upped deck.

there is only one point i can think of for this casino/obsession/addiction thing you fools are argue'n about.. your game is very addicting.... but then it gets to the point where there is no reward or point to play. after you get to a certain point, it becomes almost annoying to continue to play... arent many games i know of that after one week of playing it, its only truely acceptable to be playing a SINGLE game mode(FG). i can simply not think of another game that forces its player to do basically one thing, all the time....

wont lie... he is right about the pvp aspect, that it is skewed. there is absolutly no point to click pvp once you start getting a good deck or a score over a couple thousand..... the games take incredible amounts of time to play(ive have pvp matches take well over 10 minutes due to your 1 minute countdown after every turn), for a very crappy reward of unupped cards, and minimal coins, even if your playing a highly skilled/ranked/all upped deck player... and even worse, probably about 15-20% of pvp matches you end up playing the cpu when they quit. with very minimal score increases on wins.... even less of a reason. the only time it is good to pvp, is the once a week tourny that can give you cards you cannot obtain in the game...(sounds weird even saying that, obtain cards, you cant obtain in game....wtf? lol.), that only the elite ever win.

you might ask, well... wat new rewards can we have? this question isnt easily awnsered because of the number of cards in this game. and honestly, 90% of the time you actually win a card, it is useless to your deck, or any deck that you might want to build... which if you want to build other decks, you better have 6 hours a day to grind fg.... or its not going to happen. without a large pile of cards, ai decks, and player decks are all going to be the same, so players might not see a point to grind hours and hours, to make the same FG deck that every player uses. (see SG, puppychow, etc, which are basically all the same decks, minus and plus 1-5 cards for playstyle of the player) an arguement here is, how is it balanced/enjoyable, if the whole point of the game is to grind these hours and hours to make the same deck as everyone else? people play games like this, and magic, and yugioh, because they want a deck no one else has, or at least base it around a couple cards they really like. with only 100 cards ingame.... it is IMPOSSIBLE to do this.

and the negativity from the top people on this forum/game isnt going to help(if you need a example of this.. go look at the make a new FG voting thread. and ill rest my case there)..... instead of telling people... well. you can just leave. dont play this game anymore, THE MOMENT someone is critical about your game. your in a unique situation where you have a player base(even if its not huge) that is actually WILLING to tell you the problems with your game directly(as zanz is in chat probably 2 times a day), and without bias, and with ways to improve it. there are countless threads of bugs, card ideas, ideas to fix current issues, and even ideas to add new ones. there are even threads with cards with full art and description. and for the most part, they are constantly RIPPED APART by anyone who is popular, or has any type of say in this game. (ie: the 12 masters, and maybe the next 20 people who could take their place) if players constantly are getting ripped when they come up with ideas to improve a free game, with a small market, and a small player base..... they will just leave ... literally. you should listen instead of exile. ya dont have to implement everything everyone says, but to take it into account would be wise. you can tell them why it wont work, or cant work. or if you simply CANT code it.. but to completely destroy them is not the best option. your trying to get people to play, and donate... not make them leave. marketing 101 for you there.

this game is without question. a insane grind.. probably the biggest grind ive ever seen exception to world of warcraft, everquest, and maybe some other mmo's that ive played... BUT THERE IS ONE THING... this isnt a MMO, its a friggin CARD game. to even have a CARD game in the same sentance of GRIND with games like WOW is friggin rediculous.. and it pushes ALL of the casual people away... if not all who just might want to make a deck, and pvp with it for fun when they have time.

that is all. and that is my thoughts on this nice little topic. going to go back to lose'n 7 out of 10 to FG's with a completely upped deck.



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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49364#msg49364
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 09:18:56 pm »
Just gonna ask, would you rather the game be mirco transaction like some online games?

Grimdrome

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Re: Is this farmville or what??? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=4911.msg49369#msg49369
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 09:34:15 pm »
To answer your title no this is not that really bad facebook game that EVERYONE at my school LOVES for some reason this is hands down better.

 

anything
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