*Author

Offline TimerClock14Topic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • hello pls
  • Awards: War III Promo Winner
Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288324#msg288324
« on: March 11, 2011, 08:02:57 pm »

This topic is kind of in response to this one here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,22744.0/topicseen.html

So; we all know what the RNG is. We 'worship' it as the RNG god and we hate it as such as well. We hate it because, more often than not, it really screws us over. Because of this, Elements the Game has become more dependent on luck in certain areas than it should.

So I have an idea on how to 'fix' this little problem:
Assuming that the RNG/randomizer zanz uses only randomizes decisions once; we change that randomization to twice. That would slash the chances of getting an unfair, randomized, decision in half. This would subsequently change the game so that it would become less dependent on luck and more dependent on skill, as it should be.
I have music, you have ears. Let them get acquainted with each other: https://www.soundcloud.com/mastinmusic

Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288353#msg288353
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2011, 09:03:22 pm »
I don't understand. How would that achieve half the unfair results?

Offline EvaRia

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3143
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 45
  • EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • I~am~Eva, ~Chillwind~ I~am~Ria, ~Searwind~
  • Awards: War #5 Winner - Team Aether
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288354#msg288354
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2011, 09:04:05 pm »
That doesn't really do much.

Since both randomizations are independent from each other, it will still be the same odds of the same stuff happening.

In order for it to work it needs to do a "check" for a semi-normalized randomization (Within a certain range).

This would make things really complicated, and I don't see a reason for it. It would be like adding an auto-mulligan with various different conditions to every random effect in the game.

Offline teffy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Country: de
  • Reputation Power: 20
  • teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • May the oracle be with you
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 15th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 14th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288390#msg288390
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 10:11:36 pm »
As far as I know, the deck is shuffled twice anyway.
(zanz in chat 1 year ago)
I`m teffy, here - and Ringat on Kongregate

Offline Korugar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • Korugar is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Korugar is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • A sporadic participant who loves Gravity.
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288391#msg288391
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 10:13:09 pm »
I agree that a decrease in RNG(and thus increase in skill) would be good, but I'm afraid I don't understand.

Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288392#msg288392
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 10:13:46 pm »
As far as I know, the deck is shuffled twice anyway.
(zanz in chat 1 year ago)
I think he's talking about all RNG (from mutation to chaos power to pandemonium and so on), not just the deck shuffle.

Offline ddevans96

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 113
  • ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • now palafrost online
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSilver Donor9th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake8th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House CupSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288397#msg288397
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 10:26:55 pm »
As far as I know, the deck is shuffled twice anyway.
(zanz in chat 1 year ago)
Even if this were entirely true, it's not what the topic is about.

discord / twitter: palafrost - 2x master of water - false god enthusiast
twitch: palafrost - speedrunner, ex-celeste, currently hades
avatar: makoto [persona 5] by asukabaka

Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288398#msg288398
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 10:28:33 pm »
As far as I know, the deck is shuffled twice anyway.
(zanz in chat 1 year ago)
it's true, but only when you have no 0-cost cards in your starting hand...


also, I agree, RNG is what can allow a complete noob with a crappy deck to defeat a master with a fully upped uberly built deck..

Offline Kakerlake

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1676
  • Country: li
  • Reputation Power: 24
  • Kakerlake is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Kakerlake is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Kakerlake is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.Kakerlake is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • Loyal supporter of Bunny
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeWar #7 Winner - Team AetherWeekly Tournament WinnerWinner of Dog Pit #2 - PvP EventBrawl #2 Winner - Team FireWinner of Warrior's Preparation - PvP EventSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House Cup3rd Trials - Master of EarthWeekly Tournament WinnerWeekly Tournament WinnerCard Flavor Text #2 Competition WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament Winner
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288421#msg288421
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 11:12:54 pm »
Assuming that the RNG/randomizer zanz uses only randomizes decisions once; we change that randomization to twice. That would slash the chances of getting an unfair, randomized, decision in half. This would subsequently change the game so that it would become less dependent on luck and more dependent on skill, as it should be.
As far as I know RNG, she fetches each time a new timestamp to calculate its random number whenever she is asked to. So there would be no need to calculate each decision twice since it wouldn't increase the randomness.
The fun thing about randomness is, that it doesn't do things on an average basis all the time. When there are 1000 games (just an example) a day and in each one is a haxx shield hit 10 times in a row, how often do you think all those hits miss? Well, ~once and in two games they miss 9 times, in 4 games they miss 8 times and so on. Randomness is so totally not random but lets you rather believe there is someone messing with the numbers just to get on your nerves (
)!

Apart from that, I have one idea how to fix RNG a little for the deck shuffling though I gotta admit I don't really like the idea of cheating on my beloved RNG god.
The idea is, to have halve the copies of your deck once in your firs half and once in your second halve. Any card that can't be paired will be placed randomly.
An example: You have a basic Shrieker rush: 6 Grabs, 6 Shriekers, 18 Pillars. When you start the game, your deck will be shuffled but you know for sure that the first 15 cards will be 3 Grabs, 3 Shriekers and 9 Pillars.
Another example: You have: 15 Quantum Pillars, 5 Mutations, 5 Photons and 5 Elves. With this, you will have in your firs 15 cards for sure this: 7 Pillars, 2 Mutations, 2 Photons, 2 Elves and 2 more cards randomly chosen.
This would defenitely decrease the chance of a bad hand or a insanely good hand... and probably destroy most of the fun in this game :P

Offline teffy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1689
  • Country: de
  • Reputation Power: 20
  • teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.teffy is a Mummy waiting to discover the path to glory.
  • May the oracle be with you
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 15th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 14th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288952#msg288952
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 06:30:46 pm »
I think , I donĀ“t understand the suggestion, and why you linked to that thread.
Or do you mean the RNG, which chooses FGs and sometimes seems to choose gods not randomly ?
I`m teffy, here - and Ringat on Kongregate

Offline TimerClock14Topic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 32
  • TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.TimerClock14 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • hello pls
  • Awards: War III Promo Winner
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288960#msg288960
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 06:46:27 pm »
Everything not mulligan that's currently decided by the RNG is affected by this suggestion.
This includes, but is not limited to:
-discord
-FG and other AI matchups
-Oracle

I'll use discord as an example to describe exactly what i'm suggesting:

Under the current RNG, here's how discord works:
If discord hits/is not stopped:
deal damage
get all element quantum pools that have >0 quantum
randomize -> get a total of 10 quantum from quantum pools with >0 quantum
randomize -> place that 10 quantum into any of the 12 quantum pools
/end

Under this suggestion:
If discord hits/is not stopped:
deal damage
get all element quantum pools that have >0 quantum
(randomize -> get a total of 10 quantum from quantum pools with >0 quantum) x2
(randomize -> place that 10 quantum into any of the 12 quantum pools) x2
/end
I have music, you have ears. Let them get acquainted with each other: https://www.soundcloud.com/mastinmusic

Dark Weaver

  • Guest
Re: Idea: How to take the haxx out of RNG https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22751.msg288995#msg288995
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 07:58:57 pm »
i don't understand the example nor the suggestion.

from the discord example all i see is a doubled effect, instead of scrambling once it will scramble two times so in theory if you have only 20 time quantum you can end with only 20 earth quantum. I dont see how it can reduce the 'bad luck rng factor'. Suppose you play only with one element, you are still screwed this way and it will only advantage the rainbow decks by more evenly distribute the quantums.

how do you apply this to mutation for example? Mutate the creature once them mutate it another time but which mutation do you keep? how do you combine this? if you dont combine them it still like a single mutation.

same goes for FG matchups, you choose one FG then another and then ...? You pick the first or the second ? it still the same

Quote
This would subsequently change the game so that it would become less dependent on luck and more dependent on skill, as it should be.
A card that involve luck is part of the strategy in how to use/deal with it. If you want a game solely based on skill then remove all the luck cards (lots of shields, lots of entropy  cards, ...)
And i find it more important to resolve the mulligan first then to address the rng use. Using a proper mulligan like magic the gathering is the way to diminish the luck factor and improve the skill factor, but that's something the creator is opposed to and as such i dont see how your suggestion to diminish the luck can be approved.

 

anything
blarg: