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onimatrix

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I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35391#msg35391
« on: March 09, 2010, 02:21:20 am »
Hey! =D

Today I farmed AI5 (~40 games won with an amazingly boring aether/dark deck) and got 1 upped and 3 unupped cards...
I understand that Elements, as it is now, means grinding until the 2012 armageddon but IMHO this will leave you sixtish übergamers alone and us, newbies with too much time in our hands, working the skinner box ad nauseaum.

To prevent this, I have a few ideas:

a) Make the coin reward more significant. (40 gold against AI5... 36 games won for a single upgrade.... 1080 games for an upped deck Oo)
b) Get a skill based levelling system into the game. Maybe give multipliers to the marks, or gain an extra draw per turn (Really expensive), or lower card prices, or more HP, or even more cards in the hand... they will make the difference between "Oh, another seven hours to upgrade this card" and "Just two more AI5s to level up!".
c) Bias the slot machine, make it win more often if the player survived with a better score (EMs will be more valuable, but they should be a factor of game dominance instead of "End game with full HP")
d) CCG are known for having "booster packs". Making AI controlled tournaments (Tweaked to the player's level) that, on the event of winning, would give you one pack of random cards would give a far greater sense of accomplishment, even if all the cards are quantum pillars and you just lost two hours of your life. From the players point of view, it's less random than a slot machine.

Today I've played ~38 games skillfully and felt like there was really no reward (Well... there wasn't any XD).

I know, "go and farm FGs"... well, I won three times (And lost seven) against them and got not a single drop of love from the experience.
Seeing as it takes thrice the effort for me to kill a FG against the mindless AI5 grinding, if the probabilities are the same then there's no reason to desecrate those bastards ^^


On a side note, I don't know what's the frequency for new card releases but even one card per week should keep us deck builders coming for more (Though I love being able to know every card in the game after one week, maybe new players should be presented with a subset of cards)


Aaaaaaaand... yup: another one n_nU
New players (<1000) could get full refunds for their cards and free mark switching, to avoid the feeling of "I made a stupid decision and there goes that awesome card I won... again".
I've reseted eight times before I learned how to play. :p

ScytherLoL

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35405#msg35405
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2010, 03:10:04 am »
Hmm great ideas. All have been covered in varying threads and your concerns are indeed valid.

I am unsure when these things could be done and if they would be at all.

I wish we could have every change we want as many of the issues we see (ie endless grinding) just drive us nuts and some leave for a slightly less monotonous game.

Thanks for the tips, I'll look for the other threads shortly

Scyther

onimatrix

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35435#msg35435
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2010, 04:08:13 am »
You are welcome Scyther :)

I don't know where Zanz is aiming with the game.
I have an open source game growing day by day with a couple of collaborators, but we programmers know that every project is a beloved child and/or an economical quest and it's a great deal to let others into your sancta sanctorum.

I'd love to improve the experience, though.

I have 4 years developing 3rd party games for Nintendo (Currently working on some DSi 3d engine), Sony and Gameloft (May they burn in the deepest circle of hell, them and their ill born mobile franchise games xD) and, though my weapon of choice is C++, I need only a week, some Red Bull and an ebook on ActionScript/PHP.

I want to make this great game even better :D

(I could provide translation to/from spanish too, I need something to do while grinding  :P)

ScytherLoL

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35437#msg35437
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 04:11:06 am »
Hmm translation would be interesting. Personally my programming knowledge is very Basic and although I can do some things I tend to out source for the rest.

I am glad you have come on board and I am sure that you will be of great help to all of us.

Thanks for your input.

Scyther

Offline Chemist

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35582#msg35582
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 04:34:50 pm »
Hey! =D
Hello and welcome to the community! :) To address most of the points:

a) Make the coin reward more significant. (40 gold against AI5... 36 games won for a single upgrade.... 1080 games for an upped deck Oo)
If upgrading all the cards in the game was a quick matter then people would do that and then likely leave as they saw nothing more to strive for.

b) Get a skill based levelling system into the game. Maybe give multipliers to the marks, or gain an extra draw per turn (Really expensive), or lower card prices, or more HP, or even more cards in the hand... they will make the difference between "Oh, another seven hours to upgrade this card" and "Just two more AI5s to level up!".
I am sure the community would love a more skill based reward system, but currently the game AI isn't exactly good at distinguishing good choices from bad ones. I'm unconvinced that you need to be more skilled to play AI5 rather than AI3 - you just need a different deck. I don't think skill can be judged well by what level you play. And any kind of leveling system like that would shatter the current game balance. Killing FGs would be a piece of cake.

c) Bias the slot machine, make it win more often if the player survived with a better score (EMs will be more valuable, but they should be a factor of game dominance instead of "End game with full HP")
Simply giving out greater rewards for EM wouldn't cut it either since that is also much a matter of the type of deck you're playing (and you needen't have even thought of the deck you're using).

d) CCG are known for having "booster packs". Making AI controlled tournaments (Tweaked to the player's level) that, on the event of winning, would give you one pack of random cards would give a far greater sense of accomplishment, even if all the cards are quantum pillars and you just lost two hours of your life. From the players point of view, it's less random than a slot machine.
Booster packs have been proposed before and many people like the idea. I think Zanz has yet to comment on them, though. I also like the AI turnament idea. The game needs more quests and things to do in general.

I know, "go and farm FGs"... well, I won three times (And lost seven) against them and got not a single drop of love from the experience.
Seeing as it takes thrice the effort for me to kill a FG against the mindless AI5 grinding, if the probabilities are the same then there's no reason to desecrate those bastards ^^
Learning how to farm FGs effectively involves losing a lot. Players who give up because of the learning curve won't get the higher rewards they offer. That isn't exactly unfair... it's much like life (which can be unfair in general, but not on this matter).

On a side note, I don't know what's the frequency for new card releases but even one card per week should keep us deck builders coming for more (Though I love being able to know every card in the game after one week, maybe new players should be presented with a subset of cards)
New cards are currently the highest item on the players' wishlist for the game. I understand they can be tricky to code, though. I'm also not sure how hard it is to get art for cards, and then there's the whole game balance issue...

Offline Xinef

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35674#msg35674
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 07:36:24 pm »
I don't like the skill based leveling idea... this kind of player development is good in single player games and some types of multiplayer games, but not good in PvP card games in my opinion.
Right now for example an average player can defeat a skilled player if he gets a good draw against a bad draw. With skill based leveling, the higher level player would have an even bigger advantage over lower level players, especially because skills you suggested would generally lower the luck factor (more hp means, that even with a bad draw you can survive until you draw more cards, having more cards in hand means higher probability of having enough pillars and other cards to have a good start, double draw would make bad draws even less of a problem).

As long as PvP works like it does right now, such a system would be very bad for PvP in my opinion. If you fight against a higher level you may as well quit straight away... if you fight against a lower level, it would be boring easy.
And even if PvP is changed, so that you fight opponents of your level most of the time, I guess it still wouldn't work well with tournaments. You would have to make separate tournaments for a number of level ranges, or something... or a number of leagues, or whatever...
Many CCG work well without leveling and I think elements are also better without it.

Of course all this is only my opinion and thoughts ;)
I like your other ideas much better, although I guess it is very hard to balance the prices/grinding speed/winning spins probability/etc
so that achieving some goal (like fully upped deck, having the rare cards you want, etc) is always achievable in a reasonable time, yet not too easy or boring. People who play half an hour a day or less will always find it 'too slow' and people who play several hours a day will get bored quickly I guess...
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35706#msg35706
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 08:50:44 pm »
LOL -- I knew the instant I read 'working the skinner box' that you were a game designer.  Hilarious! 

That said, from a game designer's perspective, the 'levelling up' option is a bad one, because it makes players inclined to play less immediately after leveling up -- because they know that the next major reward is a long ways off, so there's less impetus to play again right now (which the slot system totally provides.)

Also, establishing a system of 'game dominance' is really tough in game where 'dominance' can vary significantly from 'I killed him before his deck kicked in' to 'I took over the board and robbed him of everything he put out and killed him just before I decked out'.  It's an easy thing to measure if you have a human brain, but establishing rules for an AI to judge 'dominance' would be waay too much work for the benefit Zanz would see...which is actually almost nil in terms of people playing more (or donating more). 


That said, I think the coin reward should be adjusted for number of cards owned (say, every 100 cards you own adds another coin to the base reward, which does get doubled in an EM) in order to convince new players to purchase a full set of unupgraded cards before or as they start upgrading.  It also provides a nice ramping reward for new players to really get involved in the game.   

Also, booster packs are a brilliant idea that have been bandied around many times here before.

+1 Karma for being awesome, and welcome!
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

onimatrix

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35724#msg35724
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2010, 09:30:15 pm »
Hello to all of you and thank you for taking the time to answer me =)

I see that some of my ideas contradict themselves (I can't seem to decide between a PVPish CCG with better chances for new users and a AI powered Card RPG), but either way I'm just happy to share all of them with you all.

Quote
If upgrading all the cards in the game was a quick matter then people would do that and then likely leave as they saw nothing more to strive for.
If grinding is all there is to strive for, what's left for the awesome deck building system?
IMO, that's more fun than playing thousands of games and it can only be achieved after getting some upgraded cards (Otherwise, there would be a lot more unupped decks in the Decks section. Even SGs Rainbow FG killer uses seven upped cards).

Quote
I am sure the community would love a more skill based reward system, but currently the game AI isn't exactly good at distinguishing good choices from bad ones. I'm unconvinced that you need to be more skilled to play AI5 rather than AI3 - you just need a different deck. I don't think skill can be judged well by what level you play. And any kind of leveling system like that would shatter the current game balance. Killing FGs would be a piece of cake.
Yeah, you are right.
Still, it could be a nice addition to single player/questing/grinding mode (Leaving PVP unaffected), making for a parallel character development and rewarding commitment to the game.

Quote
Simply giving out greater rewards for EM wouldn't cut it either since that is also much a matter of the type of deck you're playing (and you needen't have even thought of the deck you're using).
Yep, that's why I proposed to change EM's condition to something more balanced for all the posible decks.
Think about the concept of "game dominance" instead of full HP at the end of the game.
Having to create a deck thinking about EMs (FFQ, Life, Miracle, etc) seems rather artificial and limiting, don't you think?

"Game dominance" is a subjective concept, riddled with multiple variables. Still, even something as simple as Average HP of Player1 / Average HP of Player2 would give, with proper tweaking, a much better solution to EM.
After all, destroying permanents and creatures doesn't mean crap if your HP keeps lowering.
This example solution would give an excellent rating to a successful rush, to a great denial game and to every conceivable scenario I can think of right now. Even healing is considered.

Quote
Learning how to farm FGs effectively involves losing a lot. Players who give up because of the learning curve won't get the higher rewards they offer. That isn't exactly unfair... it's much like life (which can be unfair in general, but not on this matter).
The thing is, there is no learning curve but only in deck building and the rest is common sense and sheer luck.
Regarding common sense or luck, there's not much you can do for the user.
About deck building, we get to the same stuff I wrote about in this thread.
Even if you have the ability to create wonderful decks, the only way to get to them is to grind, grind and then grind a little more.
Players won't give up on steep learning curves, they'll lose interest because of seemingly unnatainable goals.


Essence:

I'm just a programmer who plays games while compiling :P
Also, you can get my WIP here (http://www.otratuercadevuelta.blogspot.com/).
The page is in spanish, but the documentation is bilingual (And a pain to mantain ^^).
To download directly, get it from here (http://www.box.net/shared/0hsk6mh48q). (See what I did there? XD)

Quote
That said, from a game designer's perspective, the 'levelling up' option is a bad one, because it makes players inclined to play less immediately after leveling up -- because they know that the next major reward is a long ways off, so there's less impetus to play again right now (which the slot system totally provides.)
I'm not replacing the slot system with the levelling one, they would work in parallel.
It would only add a medium term goal while keeping the ADD patients playing, and everyone is happy :p

onimatrix

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35871#msg35871
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 02:12:27 am »
Heh, I just tried to kill FGs with my SG's unnuped FG killer (Both Otys, the Fallen Elf and one Hourglass upped) and got beaten 25 times in a row.

Some bad draws, some Divine Glory, some Seism (Got to shield my quantum pillars by turn 3, playing sundials all along. By turn 7 he had killed me with his massive army), some Rainbow, some Scorpio (Got 10 poison on me by turn 2, I just kept drawing pillars)...

Maybe I'm just unlucky  :))

Is it always like this in the beginning?
When Chemist said that "Learning how to farm FGs effectively involves losing a lot." did he meant "Lose 750 coins while you don't learn anything at all"?

I'm sorry about the rant, I guess I'll PVP my frustration off :p

icybraker

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35873#msg35873
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 02:14:14 am »
Maybe I'm just unlucky  :))
Did you practice your FG deck beforehand? Rainbow decks are surprisingly complex; many cards work together in accordance, and timing is everything. Practice, practice, practice your decks on Half-Bloods and Level 3 first until you know every aspect of it.

But there is the element of luck involved. Seems like you played many of the harder Gods.

onimatrix

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg35904#msg35904
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 02:38:06 am »
I know, the ones I wrote about are the "hard" FGs.

And yes, I had used that deck for the past week against AI3, Top50 and AI5 with really good results. I ended up changing the strategy to something along the lines of an Aflatoxin Mutant Factory and got a really good deck (Two Aflatoxins instead of the Boneyard and one Pillar)... that lost miserably against the FGs >_<

Well, at least I'm kicking ass at PvP xD (Ten wins, nine of which EMs. And I got 4 unupped cards in the slots, for the first time since last thursday :S)

Thanks icybraker!

onimatrix

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Re: I can't get no satisfaction https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3763.msg36915#msg36915
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 01:55:33 am »
Hello =D

Well, after some grinding sessions (Lost my 3 upped cards trying new strategies) I ended up realizing WHERE I got it all wrong:
Farming harder levels without a proper deck ends up being non rewarding because of the time and the effort it takes.

I'm currently farming AI3 with a modified No Land Stompy that gets me 50-60% EMs and I got 1k coins in 1.5 hours.
At this rate, in a week I'll have 8 upped cards and I'll be killing AI3 in 4 turns with EM, upping all the deck in the next week.

Two weeks for an upped deck, playing 1.5 hours a day. This should be somewhere visible I think.

 

anything
blarg: