Graboid Nerf

[Antagon]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6692.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,6692.0.html)

[Xoned]

Don't really want. There are tons of ways to counter skreikers before they are burrowed.
8|3 for 8 is fair. That can be destroyed by a drain life, fire/ice lance, paradox, RoF, shockave, lightning, devour, sniper, or poison.

In total it costs them 9 (8 play + 1 burrow) to get a safe creature with 4|3 stats, a creature which can be almost complely blocked with a titanuim sheild/hope or controlled with a thorn carapace/fire buckler.

[Glitch]

Xoned, that's not the point.  Unupgraded, shriekers are 8|3 creatures for four.  Upgraded they're 10|4.  A combined graboid+shrieker is 20 damage for 12.  Extrapolate, and you've got 120 damage for 70 quanta.  Their cost to damage ratio is 12|7, which is less than frogs, so I'm not complaining.  And, while six of these hit twice as hard as frogs do, they also cost over twice that much.  That doesn't make the overpowered.  But what DOES make them overpowered is the fact that there are 12 of them.

In a 30 card graboid shrieker rush, the odds of drawing a hitter are the exact same as the odds of getting through fog shield.

In your classic shrieker rush (eighteen earth pillars, six graboid, six shrieker) you've got a 93% chance of drawing three pillars or more, and an average draw of four pillars.  Meanwhile, you've got an 82% chance of drawing at least one shrieker/graboid.  Four out of five games will have an opening hand graboid, and nine out of ten will have the quanta to drop it first turn..  This doesn't bother me.  What does bother me is that unlike most rushes, graboid shrieker decks have a 98% chance of drawing at least one hitter!  And most control decks with rage potion and drain life and such can handle a six creature rush.  But they CAN'T handle twelve!

Shrieker rushes can't be outstalled, as they hit for over 100 life every turn.  (With an ice shield out, arguably the strongest shield in the game, the rush still hits for 48 damage, assuming you live three turns to arrive at maximum freezing capabilities).  They can't be out rushed, as there's a 98% chance a hitter is drawn, and an 82% chance at least one graboid is drawn.  They can't be controlled except by creatures and AoE spells, and even then it takes two AoE spells to kill them, and their ability to burrow makes them neigh invincible.

The best element in the game, life, can achieve 20 damage fastest through 8 quanta spread over four cards.  Earth can do it for 12 quanta spread over two.  Sure, life is cheaper.  But Earth will draw those two cards 87% of the time.

So you tell me.  Are they overpowered?  Is it over powered when shrieker rushes have 10 damage out second turn 80% of the time?  Is it overpowered when shrieker rushes get a pillarless hand 1 in 3000 draws, decreased to 1 in 9,000,000 with automulligan?  In order for a graboid rush to have a bad hand, it has to both not have any pillars and any graboids, a feat that will only happen 1 in every 45,000,000 games.  You will play the top fifty 2,250,000 times before you ever have a chance at beating PuppyChow's graboid rush.

Go ahead and waste that 45 billion electrum.  I'll go fight the gods.  At least my little unupped deck has a better chance at winning.

[Jumbalumba]

classic shrieker rush (six earth pillars, six earthquake, six reverse time, six graboid, six shrieker)

lol wut?

Is it over powered when shrieker rushes have 10 out 98% of the time?

lol wut? Since when do Shrieker rushes have 10 out?

I don't see the point of removing Shriekers as standalone cards. People would just replace them with something else. It's not like Shriekers are overly good. 8 for a 10/4 that can turn into an immortal 5/4 compared to 4 for a 6/9. The unupgraded comparison is not as good for Golem but it still doesn't fully support Shriekers being overly better. Antlions aren't bad too. I would definitely not choose Shriekers in every situation.

Graboids are the problem.

[Glitch]

Thanks for catching my mistakes =P

The 18/6/6 deck has much more unbeatable statistics.

[PuppyChow]

I just want to point out that the shriekers in the rush I use are minimal. Two. In fact, replacing them with antlions might be better.

I also don't agree with graboids being overpowered. Take a giant frog. 5/3 for 2 life. A graboid (shrieker) is 10/4 for 3 earth and 1 time. Overall it's the same cost/damage ratio with graboid just having double the strength and double the cost. Keep in mind, however, that graboid only does two damage the first turn it's out and in some ways that's a negative since then the opponent has a turn to prepare for the shrieker. They come out slower compared to giant frogs.

After two turns, a graboid will have done 12 damage for 3 earth + 1 time, while a giant frog will have done almost the same (10 damage) for a simple 2 life. Granted, from there, graboid takes the lead, but until that point it's worse. Also of note is that if you extrapolated a giant frog to 10/4 and doubled the cost to 4 life, that 4 life would be MUCH easier to pay for rather than 3 earth + 1 time. Needing time mark hinders the deck, especially in the face of devourers, black holes, etc. Saying graboid is overpowered and giant frog is not is like saying a 1/1 creature for one quanta isn't overpowered but a 2/2 for two is (though the 2/2 is stronger in some respects, it's worse in others).

Also, shriekers aren't exactly hard to deal with. Antimatter, shockwave, rage elixir, unstable gas + snipe, lightning, 10+ fire quanta fire bolt, 10+ water quanta ice bolt, 10+ dark quanta siphon life, and congeal all deal with them adequately. Reverse time also hinders the shrieker because then you have to replay it for 8, and 10/4 for 8 earth isn't that strong. And that's not even talking about all the ways to deal with them that don't necessarily deal with giant frogs. Discord, pests, black holes, quicksands, and antimatter (to a point) all hurt shrieker rushes more than giant frogs. Finally, yes, they do have burrow, but if you're forced to use it you have other problems. Namely getting beat.


Now, you may say that giant frogs are overpowered too so just because they're just as good as graboids doesn't mean graboids aren't overpowered. But I really can't see them as that overpowered. Have you seen ferox lately? Do his giant frogs scare you? No.

The only reason people see graboids as overpowered is because they turn into big creatures that their deck just doesn't counter. A deck that losses to graboid/shrieker rushes would probably lose to a mono life rush or an immolation deck just as much. At the same time, they have a multitude of counters, which is why they aren't run very often in championship league matches anymore. Decks with lots of antimatters, speed rainbows, immolation decks, fire stalls (especially), aether/earth or mono aether, decks with pests, decks with black holes, decks with discord, decks with an abundance of shockwaves/eagle eyes/unstable gasses, and more all counter them. Do we need to nerf all of those decks too?

[PuppyChow]

Well, my main point was that ash isn't standalone because 12 pheonix is overpowered.

If shriekers weren't standalone, then a graboid rush would only have 6 creatures, and you wouldn't be able to overwhelm with 120 damage.

And, if we did this, we could even do cools things like turning shriekers back into graboid when hit with reverse time.

Honestly a shrieker rush with 18/6/6 isn't the best shrieker rush. In my opinion, the best ones are the ones that use a combination of graboids, quicksands, rewinds, and sometimes shriekers. 18/6/6 can be beat by many more decks since it has no control. Granted, 18/6/6 is better for AI3, but that doesn't mean it's better overall.

[Malduk]

Puppy, first problem is - Shrieker is the only card in the game you can bring 12 of in your deck.

Problem comparing it to other cards is:
1 Giant Frog is 5|3. You can take 6 of those awesome cards for a total of 30 dmg per turn that is killed by 1 Rain of Fire.
1 Elite Shrieker is 10|4. You can take 12 of those awesome cards for a total of 120 dmg per turn that needs 2 AoE spells to get killed.

By having 12 awesome cards in your deck, instead of 6, you double your chances of drawing them.

As for directly comparing such cards, 1 photon is free. Its damage/cost ratio is higher than one of Frogs and Shriekers. Thats where card limits enter play. You get to use 30 damage from 6 frogs. You get to use 60 damage from 6 Shriekers, and 60 damage from 6 Graboids.

10 dmg for 4 quanta is MUCH better than 5 dmg for 2 quanta. It is not the same thing.

[PuppyChow]

Puppy, first problem is - Shrieker is the only card in the game you can bring 12 of in your deck.

Problem comparing it to other cards is:
1 Giant Frog is 5|3. You can take 6 of those awesome cards for a total of 30 dmg per turn that is killed by 1 Rain of Fire.
1 Elite Shrieker is 10|4. You can take 12 of those awesome cards for a total of 120 dmg per turn that needs 2 AoE spells to get killed.

And in that way you take up 12 slots in your deck, where six of them could be filled with even more awesome cards. Keep in mind you also have to be able to PLAY those extra creatures. It's not like you get them in your hand and magically have them out on the field. Taking 6x graboids and shriekers basically necessitates you take 15+ towers, so you have very limited space for other cards that might (and probably would) make the deck better.

Also, taking 6x giant frogs and 6x cockatrice is akin to taking 6x graboid and 6x shrieker. Sure, cockatrice isn't as good as the frog, but shrieker isn't as good as the graboid.

As for directly comparing such cards, 1 photon is free. Its damage/cost ratio is higher than one of Frogs and Shriekers. Thats where card limits enter play. You get to use 30 damage from 6 frogs. You get to use 60 damage from 6 Shriekers, and 60 damage from 6 Graboids.

10 dmg for 4 quanta is MUCH better than 5 dmg for 2 quanta. It is not the same thing.

That's where all my other points come in.
-That 4 quanta is in TWO elements. MUCH harder to get consistently.
-Damage equation for graboid is: d = 10t - 8, for giant frog is d = 5t.

Graboid/Shrieker's power is balanced by it's ease to prevent happening or stopping as well as doubled cost.

[Malduk]

Puppy, first problem is - Shrieker is the only card in the game you can bring 12 of in your deck.

Problem comparing it to other cards is:
1 Giant Frog is 5|3. You can take 6 of those awesome cards for a total of 30 dmg per turn that is killed by 1 Rain of Fire.
1 Elite Shrieker is 10|4. You can take 12 of those awesome cards for a total of 120 dmg per turn that needs 2 AoE spells to get killed.

And in that way you take up 12 slots in your deck, where six of them could be filled with even more awesome cards. Keep in mind you also have to be able to PLAY those extra creatures. It's not like you get them in your hand and magically have them out on the field. Taking 6x graboids and shriekers basically necessitates you take 15+ towers, so you have very limited space for other cards that might (and probably would) make the deck better.

Also, taking 6x giant frogs and 6x cockatrice is akin to taking 6x graboid and 6x shrieker. Sure, cockatrice isn't as good as the frog, but shrieker isn't as good as the graboid.

The point about taking other "more awesome" cards is moot. We're talking about best dmg/cost damage dealers in the game here, and game limit of 6 cards per deck which Shriekers manage to avoid. The ONLY such card! It doesnt matter if YOU want to take 2 or 12 graboids/shriekers. Card itself HAS an option to have 12 of those in your deck, so discussion about which deck can and which cannot take advantage of that is really unnecessary. And every deck that packs both Graboids and Shriekers is disproving your point.

About 6 frogs, 6 cockatrice - I dont get what you tried to prove here, but 6 graboids and 6 shriekers is BETTER than life combo. You logic says that since Graboids are better than Shriekers, and Mummy is better than Skeleton, Graboids and Shriekers are obviously balanced when against 6x Mummy, 6x Skeleton?

As for directly comparing such cards, 1 photon is free. Its damage/cost ratio is higher than one of Frogs and Shriekers. Thats where card limits enter play. You get to use 30 damage from 6 frogs. You get to use 60 damage from 6 Shriekers, and 60 damage from 6 Graboids.

10 dmg for 4 quanta is MUCH better than 5 dmg for 2 quanta. It is not the same thing.

That's where all my other points come in.
-That 4 quanta is in TWO elements. MUCH harder to get consistently.
-Damage equation for graboid is: d = 10t - 8, for giant frog is d = 5t.

Graboid/Shrieker's power is balanced by it's ease to prevent happening or stopping as well as doubled cost.

It is just wrong.
Green thing: just because something can be countered, that doesnt make it balanced with other stuff that can be countered. Basically, everything can be countered. That fact does not make it balanced. If you add 5 more attack to Shriekers, that card would still be countered the same way it is now.
Yellow thing: double cost is also just plain wrong. I'll repeat that 10|4 for 4 quanta is BETTER than 5|3 for 2 quanta. You act like its the balancing factor.

The only balancing factor in the whole story is that its ability is from an off element. Is it enough? By a HUGE margin - NOT, mostly due to the tower/mark mechanics we have in the game.

[didonko]

Why do I get the feeling this is caused by 's recent wins with 2 graboid/shrieker rushes in the war?

[PuppyChow]

The point about taking other "more awesome" cards is moot. We're talking about best dmg/cost damage dealers in the game here, and game limit of 6 cards per deck which Shriekers manage to avoid. The ONLY such card! It doesnt matter if YOU want to take 2 or 12 graboids/shriekers. Card itself HAS an option to have 12 of those in your deck, so discussion about which deck can and which cannot take advantage of that is really unnecessary. And every deck that packs both Graboids and Shriekers is disproving your point.

Just because you can do it doesn't mean it's the best. I can make my deck 6x photon, 6x spark, 6x skeleton, 6x dragonfly, 6x leaf dragon, and 6x gnome rider. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's best.

Taking 6 graboids and 6 shriekers is good for AI3. But otherwise, there's just too many ways to counter it for it to be viable in my opinion. If you want to try and disprove that, go ahead.

The point about taking other better cards is NOT moot. Some decks you only want 3 of a card in your deck even though you can take 6. Taking more than 6 (sometimes a little more like 7 or 8 ) shriekers isn't ideal in most cases.

About 6 frogs, 6 cockatrice - I dont get what you tried to prove here, but 6 graboids and 6 shriekers is BETTER than life combo. You logic says that since Graboids are better than Shriekers, and Mummy is better than Skeleton, Graboids and Shriekers are obviously balanced when against 6x Mummy, 6x Skeleton?

I was just saying you can essentially have 12 giant frogs too, since elite cockatrices are the same but simply cost 1 more and have two more health.

Graboid = Shrieker
Giant Frog = Cockatrice

6 graboid + 6 shrieker = 12 shriekers
6 giant frog + 6 cockatrice = 12 giant frogs (essentially).
6 mummy + 6 skeleton =/= 12 mummys

I don't think you were following my logic.



On a completely different tangent...

Taking more than 6 of a creature is one of the strengths of a graboid rush deck. However, the fact that it has counters means it isn't OP. If it was the only deck people ran, or all decks had to be altered to account for a shrieker rush, it may be. But it isn't. There's multitudes of counters to it. It isn't OP. The fact that you can take more than 6 is just what makes it a viable deck. It's like saying phase dragons/immortals are OP because they're inherently immaterial. It's a feature of the phase dragon and immortal, and it isn't OP. Deal with it. That's what makes mono aether a good deck. Or immolation decks. The ability to play 7 attack creatures that grow on the first turn make it good; but not OP.