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dekskose

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51462#msg51462
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 01:52:42 am »
Also, you could just give Earth "All creatures come into play burrowed" or something.

this would not be good couse what if u dont want them burrowed to use your effects on themi would more say dmg dealt to you is reduced by 1 or so so with dimond shield -4 dmg
Well, you DO know that this mainly refers to your OWN creatures, dontcha? Also, the quote button is there for a reason :P

well yes/no i didnt noticed it D im some kinda new(in forum so i didnt understood taht it has it but thanks)

Offline killsdazombies

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51464#msg51464
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 02:01:15 am »
I have too say that this is amazingly good and well thought out idea, especially when coming from a "forum newbie". What happened to the good old "How can I upgrade cards?" as a members first post?

I like this idea of a bonus very much. I also like ALL the bonus suggestions you have there and that's not something you should take lightly because my favorite hobby is to find faults in ideas.

Death bonus might be a bit tricky to pull off though. I mean how do you sacrifice the creatures? You click something or what?

Like you said Water bonus could also be something else but I don't have a problem with the current one.

What about a situation where the opponent mutates my creature or even rewinds it back to my deck? Do I lose this bonus?

Great job, Malissin.
I agree, this is a good idea it would make my mono life deck even better! :D It would be nice to see more mono decks and such. Nice idea!

Maybe water could be like, freeze lasts an extra turn or ice bolts will freeze or something.

Kurohami

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51474#msg51474
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 02:27:08 am »
Terrific ideas, although some are quite over powered while others are under powered, but the general idea is great. I want to ask though, what kind of decks gets these "affinities"? Is it determined by mark, cards, or pillars?

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51475#msg51475
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2010, 02:28:38 am »
all cards and mark i assume.

Offline xdude

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51541#msg51541
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2010, 06:13:49 am »
Terrific ideas, although some are quite over powered while others are under powered, but the general idea is great. I want to ask though, what kind of decks gets these "affinities"? Is it determined by mark, cards, or pillars?
When you create a deck that uses cards from only one element, there's a bonus to using it.. To clarify, I don't think mark should affect this, since every element except Death and Aether has cards that need another element to activate their ability.
That's your answer Kurohami.

However, I found a little flaw with this idea. It will TERRIBLY imbalance pvp. FG's can only be defeated with some decks, because they have specific advantages. However, in pvp, rainbow is not too good. And pvp is supposed to be the place you look at to balance the game.

P.S.: Hope/RoL/Fractal can also kick FG ass, if you learn how to use it, not only rainbow :D
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PuppyChow

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51543#msg51543
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2010, 06:16:47 am »
I like the overall idea, but light seems underpowered while aether is overpowered.

As someone else said, the REASON phase dragons were made immortal was because TUing them was OP. Each TU was basically another dragon for less than half the price. Mono aether was almost the sole deck used.

That said, an alternative for aether:

All immortal creatures are truly immortal; shields have no effect on them.

Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51556#msg51556
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2010, 06:48:20 am »
Holy crap, I love this idea!

Offline xdude

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51582#msg51582
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2010, 07:59:06 am »
I like the overall idea, but light seems underpowered while aether is overpowered.

As someone else said, the REASON phase dragons were made immortal was because TUing them was OP. Each TU was basically another dragon for less than half the price. Mono aether was almost the sole deck used.

That said, an alternative for aether:

All immortal creatures are truly immortal; shields have no effect on them.
And thus, max HP for Light Elementals is better :). Also, I like the way you worked for Aether, but it might be even WORSE. this way, gravity shield won't stop dragons, so they're like unstoppable. That means mono Aether would have terrifying defense, and good, unstoppable offense. Not too nice.

Also, what do you guys think about my old pvp unbalance question? (shameless advertising)
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Offline MalissinTopic starter

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51602#msg51602
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2010, 09:48:55 am »
Well, I'm really pleased with the amount of responses this is generated in just a day.  Let me go ahead and address a few things that have come up a couple of times. 

A few people have asked what qualifies you for this Elemental Affinity as it were.  As xdude was kind enough to quote my original post, I'll just reiterate that I don't want it dependant on mark at all.  While there are some (2) elements that require only their element to function, the vast majority need a splash of something else to access some of their most powerful abilities.  Can you imagine playing Mono Earth and not being able to evolve your Graboids?  That would be terribly limiting.  I used the same definition required for decks in the Mono section of the forum, "Cards come from 1 element, mark doesn't matter."  To clarify further, this exludes "other" cards.  No shards, no generic weapons, no quantum pillars. 

Common concerns about the the abilities themselves are that light is underpowered, and Aether is overpowered.  With the help of xdude, the current Master of Light himself, I think that idea that "All healing spells activate when the player reaches 0 HP" is much better.  It greatly enhances your use of healing cards.  I'll go ahead and edit the original post to include this. 

In regards to Aether being overpowered, I've actually tried mono aether against the False Gods.  I've defeated 2.  The reason I've lost in every match up was deckout or a a False God with permanent control destroying my shield.  I included the original idea as a way to greatly increase Aether's damage dealing potential, which would have sped up games and allowed mono aether to kill them before decking out.  The other way to take this would be to prevent permanent control.  In other words, "Players permanents are untargetable."  What does everyone think of that?  Still leaves Aether open to being decked out by decks with large shields or healing, but allows them to beat steals and deflags. 

Keep in mind that I'm trying to find the niche to where a Fully Upgraded Mono Deck has a 50% win potential against False Gods.  Arguably, none of the "this is overpowered/this is underpowered" arguments can be put to rest until anything like this is playtested.  That's where I see most balance issues being resolved.  What I'd like to find within this thread is a coherant idea for all the elements that could be presented to the developer and if it's accepted, could be playtested before implementation. 

So now, the comments that this would be horribly overpowered in PvP.  While I don't necessarily disagree, I will say a few things about it. 

1.  At the core of this idea is fighting false gods, so I would accept this affinity only functioning in PvE game modes.

2.  Nothing is overpowered in a game if both players have the option of using it.  A queen is overpowered in Chess, but both players get one.

3.  Most CCGs focus on two ways to win.  The first is using the synergy present in two or more cards to create a combination that beats your opponent (example above of RoL/Hope) and then you grind out the rest of the game.  The weakness inherant in this strategy is that there are cards present to counter your strategy (example Rain of Fire) and the inherant randomness of drawing your deck if all you're able to use to win is a couple of cards.  The second strategy is to do something faster and better than you're opponent.  Whether this means putting out bigger creatures, casting more damaging spells, denying your opponent quanta, or healing faster than he does damage. it's the same basic concept.  You usually leave yourself open to whatever your opponent's strategy is, and count on your deck doing it's thing faster.  All decks are a variation on this theme. 

The advantages I've presented here fall squarely in the second category, but still leave your deck open to a great number of weaknesses...namely what the other 11 elements can do to it.  Think Fire using phoenix to do 7 direct damage everytime it dies is overpowered?  Talk to me again after you face a reflecting shield and all that extra damage comes back at you.  Think Aether putting out 12 dragons for the low low price of 120 Quanta is overpowered?  Talk to me again after Time decks you out using stasis to slow your damage, or Dark denial leaves you gaining 2 quanta per turn.  There's a weakness inherant in each of these decks, and it's that you sacrifice any ability to adapt on the fly.  Your mono deck does what it does, and hopes to do it faster than the other guy.

And yes, one of these days I will figure out how to write a short post.

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51603#msg51603
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2010, 10:27:50 am »
Malissin, first of all, great post. I like it, and writing short posts all the time as some do in order to get more posts quickly (aka: spamming) isn't that good. Big posts are cooler.
I really like the "the current Master of Light himself" phrase a lot, I'll put it in my personal text 8)
Unfortunately, I don't think you've found a good solution for Aether yet since most decks either can't:
a) deal over 100 damage in the first 6 turns (because a mono Aether would have 18 turns full of shields).
b) survive 24 turns with many dragons banging him.

Also, the best decks are 30 cards, and those could deck out even before the mono-Aether does so, being able to defeat a mono ONLY by decking it out while using the whole card pool is pretty OP.

Also, there is another thing.
If you allow all monos to have, say, 50% wins against gods it will be simply unfair because Fire will win more games than other slower elements will. If now somebody had a deck which can win on gods in 2-3 minutes with 30% wins against gods it would be way better than a rainbow which wins in 10 minutes with double the winning percentage, simply because more wins means more upped cards.

Now, your OP comments:

1)Read the speed thing.

2)Something IS OP if 50% of the decks used in PvP base on it.

3)Fair enough.

P.S.: The part which answered your OP comments are a tutorial of short answering :P
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Offline MalissinTopic starter

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51605#msg51605
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2010, 10:55:06 am »
Xdude, may I be the first person to have a post count of 10 and a word count in the thousands then.

I agree that Aether doesn't have a solution yet. (Somebody should get Icybraker to weigh in on this) Maybe something like "Costs of all cards reduced by  :aether or  :aether :aether" something like that? 

I don't agree that speed should be the key to winning with all of these decks.  But would like to see something more like, "Fire wins 30% or games fast, but Earth can win 60 % of games slow".  Once again, until actually playing with these abilities could balance it out, it's all just speculation.

1. Agreed.

2. If 50% of PvP decks were of one kind, I'd be the guy running a deck that countered it and I'd have a win % of at least 50.  I think it would normalize eventually.

3. Because I have way more to say on the topic, I plan on putting something in General Discussion about card theory and game balance soon...it'll be long.

There, that was short...right?

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51621#msg51621
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2010, 12:19:59 pm »
Short? Oh no, you don't seem to understand what short messages are. They are things like "Good card" or "Nice deck" or "I vote for #4". However, you're getting close. :) So yep, so far we've came to an agreement. Also, we shouldn't try to perfectly balance everything because these are, after all, just ideas.

P.S.: I'm off to reading your other thread.
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