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Offline MalissinTopic starter

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Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51131#msg51131
« on: April 10, 2010, 12:07:07 pm »
First of all, I've really enjoyed the last month or so of playing elements.  I think it's an amazing game, but didn't have much of a reason to post anything on the forums until now.  I hope you agree that this idea was worth sharing. 

One of my favorite aspects of playing a game like Elements is the feel of playing the different elements.  When I play a Death deck, it's completely different than the way I play a Life deck and I enjoy that immensely.  I think it adds variety and re-playability to what would otherwise become very monotonous just grinding all day.  As much fun as this is, I realize that in order to consistently face the False Gods, Rainbow is the way to go. 

While I accept that choosing the strongest aspects of every element should make for a powerful deck, I don't enjoy the feel of playing a Rainbow deck.  The way Death can kill your creatures, and gets stronger because of it makes sense.  The way a Rainbow deck can have a Firefly Queen produce fireflies to let them be eaten by a monstrous Otyugh doesn't.

I also understand that increasing the strength of any of the elements only makes a Rainbow deck that uses those cards stronger.  I think that the strength of playing a Rainbow deck is and should be the Quantum Tower.  Generating 3 quanta per turn, and having cards capable of using that quanta makes it fast and versatile, and I agree that's what a Rainbow should be.  Increasing the strength of cards only leads to making the AI too easy to face, which in turn leads to an arms race of increasing difficulties. 

What I propose is that their be some reason to play a mono deck.  Some bonus that puts them on par with Rainbow, and gives a chance of facing False Gods with upgraded versions of them.  The idea is both simple and complex.  When you create a deck that uses cards from only one element, there's a bonus to using it.  That's the simple part, emboldened there for all the people skimming this right now.  To clarify, I don't think mark should affect this, since every element except Death and Aether has cards that need another element to activate their ability.  The complex part, is what that bonus is. 

I thought about a single bonus for all elements, like increased mark or increased HP, but decided that didn't fit the feel of each of the elements.  Below are my ideas for what those bonuses could be, with a brief explanation of why.  I would appreciate any constructive feedback from the forums on ways to improve this idea.  I'm sure these bonuses aren't balanced, and would require extensive playtesting before implementing.  Please try to keep your ideas in the spirit of each of the elements and I'll edit this post with any changes of improvements the community can come up with.

 :entropy Entropy: Player receives 3 random quanta at the end of each turn.  (Mirrors the effect of having a Quantum Pillar that can't be targeted in play.  Allows Entropy to use the abilities from all those mutations, and the randomness fits with entropy.

 :death Death: Player is able to sacrifice any of their creatures at any time.  (Enhances the use of boneyards/walls and fits with the theme of death.)

Edit: Now looking at "Opponents creatures come into play with 1 Poison counter."  It keeps the ability passive instead of activated, which is a theme that runs through the other ideas, while still allowing you to feed boneyard/wall.  Feel free to discuss.

 :gravity Gravity: Player's creatures come into play with +0/+2.  (Enhances gravity pulls and Otyugh's effectiveness.  The increased mass fits the overall mood of Gravity.)

 :earth Earth: Player begins play with 120 HP.  (Mirrors the effects of stone skin, fits the thick skin one would expect from a master of Earth.)

 :life Life: Player heals for 1 HP everytime a creature comes into play.  (Fits with Life's healing abilities and the idea that Life grows stronger when new life is created makes sense to me.)

 :fire Fire: Player's creatures deal their attack in damage to enemy player when killed.  (Increases the effectiveness of immolate, while fitting the explosive nature of the fire element.)

 :water Water: Player is immune to poison and player's creatures are immune to infection. (Admittedly not my best idea, but it's all I can come up with for water.  Really only of use against a couple of deck types and I'm certainly open to better suggestions.)

Edit: With the help of the forums, I'm now looking at something like "Opponents creatures might freeze when they come into play."  Feel free to discuss.

 :light Light: Player's creatures are healed 1 hp at the end of every turn.  (Basically a constant and lesser version of the Angel's and Holy Light.  Fits the overall mood of a healing Light.)

Edit:Consensus is currently that "Healing spells targeting this player go into affect when the player reaches 0 HP" would be better, and that it still fits with light.  Above original idea left for posterity.

 :air Air: Opponent takes 1 damage for every creature you have in play at the end of each turn.  (Enhances the swarming ability of FFQ and fits with the mood of a raging wind.)

 :time Time: Player doesn't lose when a card can no longer be drawn. (Allows for time to fully use their card drawing abilities without worrying about decking out, and makes Eternity more useful as an offensive weapon late game, while making sense that Time could freeze time for itself.)

 :darkness Darkness: Player's creatures come into play "Obscured" and can not be seen by opponent for 1 turn. (Note, they can still be targeted, you just don't know what you're targeting.  The AI could treat it as a 0/0 creature for target prioritizing and human opponents just have to decide if it's worth targeting or not.  Makes sense that darkness would be hard to see.)

:aether Aether: Player can target Immaterial creatures.  (Allows the player to PU and Fractal their own creatures, while letting them hit Immaterial enemies with Lightning.  Makes sense that a true master of Aether would be able to turn it off.)

And there you have it folks, I know it's long, so I appreciate you taking the time to read it and welcome your feedback.

EDIT: A common theme in a lot of the comments here is that this idea is overpowered.  While I agree that this idea gives mono decks a lot more power, that was the original intent.  I am trying to find a way to make a fully upgraded mono deck a viable option versus the False Gods.  Please remember that just because these abilities are strong, that the person has to give up all the versatility of cards from other elements.  As an example, if the suggested ability for Fire was implemented, Fire would deal damage much faster, however a mono fire deck gives up all protection and healing to do so.  It would become a race to do 200 Damage as fast a a False God does 100.  To me, that captures the essence of what it means to be playing Fire.  If you find any one idea too powerful, or not powerful enough, I appreciate suggestions on how you would change it, but simply stating that it is over/underpowered doesn't advance the idea.  Thank you.

Ender241

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51137#msg51137
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 12:22:56 pm »
 :entropy Entropy: Player receives 3 random quanta at the end of each turn.  (Mirrors the effect of having a Quantum Pillar that can't be targeted in play.  Allows Entropy to use the abilities from all those mutations, and the randomness fits with entropy.


I think this is a great idea and all, but the point of it being mono is using only that type so if you get the random quanta at the end of each turn it's not being a proper mono.

dekskose

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51140#msg51140
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 12:24:11 pm »
its a good idea but you would need to also make this for du decks couse lets say your air that with swarm will not work ocuse you need 2life for each firefly wich you cant play in mono so all the cards wich need other quanta wont work and some like gravity and aether are unfair i mean aether can tu his dragons????? thats more then just unfair
time did you know that it has deck out decks where you play cards just for that reason so play much shields and stuff so your opponent loses couse he dont got cards anymore what would happen with them

dekskose

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51141#msg51141
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 12:25:05 pm »
@ender well i think he made enthropy so he c an play his mutations

miniwally

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51145#msg51145
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 12:35:21 pm »
The reason phase dragon was made immortal was so that mono-aether's couldn't PU it. Nice ideas but I think a couple are OP (gravity (with otyugh means it can kill and less that 7hp creature which is most), time, aether) and compared to the others some are UP (Life (1hp per creature played isn't much as I doubt they'll be constantly be playing cards), death (sacrificing strong creatures for a bonewall isn't a very good tactic in my eyes and is very situational).

Offline MalissinTopic starter

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51147#msg51147
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 12:37:09 pm »
its a good idea but you would need to also make this for du decks couse lets say your air that with swarm will not work ocuse you need 2life for each firefly wich you cant play in mono so all the cards wich need other quanta wont work
To clarify, I don't think mark should affect this, since every element except Death and Aether has cards that need another element to activate their ability.

I think allowing a mono air deck to choose a mark of life resolves the problem with that just fine.  Maybe you just missed that part in my original post.


and some like gravity and aether are unfair i mean aether can tu his dragons????? thats more then just unfair
time did you know that it has deck out decks where you play cards just for that reason so play much shields and stuff so your opponent loses couse he dont got cards anymore what would happen with them
As to Aether, it would allow TU and Fractal to be used in a mono deck, yes.  And time would not be able to be decked out, yes.  If you think this is overpowered, I would appreciate any constructive alternative abilities that you think better fit Gravity, Aether, or Time.

Ender241

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51150#msg51150
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 12:40:51 pm »
Well i think with a few changes this could be a good idea and you should email Zanzarino about it.

Scaredgirl

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51187#msg51187
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 02:25:04 pm »
I have too say that this is amazingly good and well thought out idea, especially when coming from a "forum newbie". What happened to the good old "How can I upgrade cards?" as a members first post?

I like this idea of a bonus very much. I also like ALL the bonus suggestions you have there and that's not something you should take lightly because my favorite hobby is to find faults in ideas.

Death bonus might be a bit tricky to pull off though. I mean how do you sacrifice the creatures? You click something or what?

Like you said Water bonus could also be something else but I don't have a problem with the current one.

What about a situation where the opponent mutates my creature or even rewinds it back to my deck? Do I lose this bonus?

Great job, Malissin.

Wisemage

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51199#msg51199
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 02:58:30 pm »
I dont like the Fire one.  it makes phoenixes an even STRONGER card than it already is.

xdawnbydeath

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51201#msg51201
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 03:01:16 pm »
I think this is a great idea.  Imagine how could death would be with the ability and condor+boneyard+aflatoxin.  As to how these could be implemented, make it an untargetable artifact.  Along with shield, weapon, and mark, there could be "Affinity" or something along those lines.  As to water, you could make creatures stay frozen for 1 turn longer, although that might be too good.

Offline MalissinTopic starter

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51204#msg51204
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 03:15:14 pm »
The reason phase dragon was made immortal was so that mono-aether's couldn't PU it. Nice ideas but I think a couple are OP (gravity (with otyugh means it can kill and less that 7hp creature which is most), time, aether) and compared to the others some are UP (Life (1hp per creature played isn't much as I doubt they'll be constantly be playing cards), death (sacrificing strong creatures for a bonewall isn't a very good tactic in my eyes and is very situational).
I'll go ahead and respond to it here, and then I'll probably edit the original post to make this a bit clearer.  This idea is intended to give mono decks a shot at fighting False Gods.  So the argument that it's overpowered may well be true, but that was the original intent. 

Now, is an Oty that comes into play as an 0/7 overpowered?  I don't think so.  First of all, your opponent is still going to hit you with every creature they play, even if you eat it the next turn.  Keep in mind that Mono Gravity would have only Black Hole to heal, and that's not really that effective, so you're still going to have to out damage a 200 HP FG.

I don't think time is all that overpowered at all, you're taking an ability that mono time arguably already has, with Eternity, and making it free.  And you're giving Eternity back the ability to use it against the opponent.  Nothing more, nothing less. 

Aether would gain the ability to use PU on its Dragons, true...but a lot of the time you're already copying the opponents dragons.  You're also opening up fractal to be used, but since you're a mono deck, using all your Aether Quanta to play it means a very slow start to get those cards back out.  And both of those cards are still not cheap to play.

Life may be underpowered, depending on your opponent really.  I'm assuming it gives you an extra 10-30 HP in a game, based on you playing 10 creatures and your opponent, depending on the deck, playing between 0 and 20.  Yes, those numbers are completely made up.  If that's not enough, maybe it should be 2 HP per creature.  Does that seem better?  I was aiming for something that put it on par with a similar ability I suggested for Earth.  Realistically, 20 extra health isn't that great since the killing blow is usually your opponent dealing twice that, but since both Life and Earth can heal, that little extra might be enough to get you to your next Heal, or Empathic Bond, or Stone Skin.

And the idea for Death certainly wasn't for you to be sacrificing Bone Dragons, but rather a way to feed your Bone Wall some skeletons.  Or for you to be able to use Aflatoxin on yourself and still get rid of them without Unstable Gas.  In fact, that might just be the most powerful bonus I suggested, if you could set up a combo to Aflatoxin yourself, you could kill 10 or so cells per round and have an huge bonewall.  Of course, Aflatoxin is slow to set up, and 1 Rain of Fire stops you.  Everything has a counter.

So please, if you're going to say that 1 idea or another is over/underpowered, suggest someway to correct it.  Your input is appreciated. 

I have too say that this is amazingly good and well thought out idea, especially when coming from a "forum newbie". What happened to the good old "How can I upgrade cards?" as a members first post?

I like this idea of a bonus very much. I also like ALL the bonus suggestions you have there and that's not something you should take lightly because my favorite hobby is to find faults in ideas.

Death bonus might be a bit tricky to pull off though. I mean how do you sacrifice the creatures? You click something or what?

Like you said Water bonus could also be something else but I don't have a problem with the current one.

What about a situation where the opponent mutates my creature or even rewinds it back to my deck? Do I lose this bonus?
First off, thank you very much.  I'm sorry that I was able to find the upgrade card option on my own...it seemed so obvious.  But seriously, I appreciate Scaredgirl taking the time to read this and provide feedback, it means a lot.

I was envisioning something where a symbol/button was added to show your opponent (only applicable to pvp) that you were getting it.  It could be clicked and would activate like a spell.  Although since Death's ability is the only one that requires you to activate it, if anyone can think of a better passive ability for death, I'm open to suggestions.  As far as mutations/rewinds are concerned, I think the ability should stay.  The game could check for whether you qualify at the start of the match, and you'd have it the entire time.  Otherwise Entropy wouldn't be able to mutate anything and that would be a huge disadvantage for them.

As far as water is concerned, I just couldn't figure out exactly what water did, except freeze.  I know it poisons, but that really felt like a Death thing that Water did, not really at the heart of the Water Element.  So I took the card Purify, expanded it,  and basically made it a permanent affect.  If anyone with more experience playing water decks has a better feel for it, I'd love to hear it.

Once again, thanks for the constructive comments, and I look forward to more.

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Re: Giving Mono a Boost https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5148.msg51215#msg51215
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2010, 03:34:41 pm »
IMO, I think Light's bonus is useless. It's not like healing creatures is any good anyways. How about something like "Player begins with 150 (or another number) max health, but with only 100 Health"?

IDK if I was clear, but what I meant is that at the start of a game a player's health would be 100 HP, but any form of healing could get it up to 150 (or another number).

About water : How about "Each non-water creatures come into play frozen for 1 turn" So, in the first turn it is frozen, thus it cannot attack.

No passive idea about the Death card though, how about boneyard effect? ("Each time a creature is killed, 1 skeleton is created on your side of the board/field/whatever it's called")



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