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Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg454420#msg454420
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 05:05:48 pm »

2. SNbows. SNbows are very common arena grinders for every league. Is it that hard to assemble 6/7  :time and make ghost backfire against your opponent?



After all, ghostmares are not that hard to beat... I personally defeat them in gold league 70% of the time  :P


Felt i should mention somethings. It is difficult for speedbows to muster up over 6--7 time quanta, even if they do play a ghost, its likely going to be rewound.
The other part..... well all that i really have for that is stupid ai.
2 SNovas (usually what a SNbow needs to get its momentum) + some leftovers from quantum towers gives 6 :time, if you saved them up instead of playing an hourglass.
Accept ghostmares... they're already a part of the metagame. Pack a counter for them and it'll be all fine. (Tyrant players will know what I mean...)
Again, rewinds, which make playing the ghost boarder line useless. Then you get hit with nightmares which clog your draws as well, making it so your likely never going to draw more then 4 super novas.
Also, slipping counters in for specific decks just hurts the deck in the grand scheme. Unless of course your almost exclusively playing the said deck.
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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg454429#msg454429
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 05:31:10 pm »
Just saying, a card/deck shouldn't be made illegal in Arena because it can win. It kind of defeats the purpose of making a good deck...
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Offline Mathematistic

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg454436#msg454436
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 05:38:25 pm »

2. SNbows. SNbows are very common arena grinders for every league. Is it that hard to assemble 6/7  :time and make ghost backfire against your opponent?



After all, ghostmares are not that hard to beat... I personally defeat them in gold league 70% of the time  :P


Felt i should mention somethings. It is difficult for speedbows to muster up over 6--7 time quanta, even if they do play a ghost, its likely going to be rewound.
The other part..... well all that i really have for that is stupid ai.
2 SNovas (usually what a SNbow needs to get its momentum) + some leftovers from quantum towers gives 6 :time, if you saved them up instead of playing an hourglass.
Accept ghostmares... they're already a part of the metagame. Pack a counter for them and it'll be all fine. (Tyrant players will know what I mean...)
Again, rewinds, which make playing the ghost boarder line useless. Then you get hit with nightmares which clog your draws as well, making it so your likely never going to draw more then 4 super novas.
Also, slipping counters in for specific decks just hurts the deck in the grand scheme. Unless of course your almost exclusively playing the said deck.
The "grand scheme" means to win consistently, in which means countering the common decks in the metagame (e.g. SNbows, ghostmares, disholes, creama-golem) is important.
For instance, a good AI3 grinder is meant to beat AI3 decks, and not decks out of those (they can do good outside, but it's not a must).
Sometimes a deck type will appear so much that including certain counters are worth it. (e.g. a black hole to cripple SNbows)

That aside, here comes a few all-rounded counters VS ghostmare:

1. Discord. It's scramble is usually good enough to prevent the occasional steal, while it brings your opponent to the same quanta issues on playing the ghosts. (Yes, I have to agree with your point here)
2. Sanctuary. A consistent healer that counters nightmare hard. Also provides protection VS disholes. Healing, BH counter, nightmare counter - 3 in 1. (Detergent advert? :D )
3. Wings. 5 turn protection vs active ghosts. Enough to recover the draw-lock. Steals are not present in all ghostmares.
4. Maxwell's Demon. With some careful baiting of rewinds this little demon can bust those ghosts.
5. Elite Otyugh. Although it's a priority target of rewind, even eating 1 or 2 ghosts can give you more time.
6. Steal. Solve the quanta issue by getting yourself a time tower, or block the damage with a stolen dusk mantle.
7. Black Hole. Sometimes ghostmares pwoer nightmares with a mere :darkness mark. Quanta drain will render nightmares useless.

(Not-so-useful counters, still ok)

8. Rewind. Ghosts are costly creatures. This helps clogging your opponent's hand early on, and may cause them to discard ghosts too.
9. Mummy. This poor little guy ought to receive more attention... The AI will never target rewind on your mummy since they consider it as a buff (and it IS, for rainbows). Is 1 attack less than flesh recluse really that bad?
10. Silence. Stops all rewinding for 1 turn. Sometimes the AI is silly enough to discard a ghost and damage himself... This card deserves more use vs SNbows in sustaining turn advantage (i.e. stop your opponent from playing SNovas), too.

Does it really hurt that much to include some of the above cards in a SNbow in order to stand a chance vs a common deck type?
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Offline omegareaper7

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg454450#msg454450
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 06:20:04 pm »
I know ghostmare's counters well enough, you don't have to tell me any of them. I'm confident that i have played the deck more then most. 
I want to add the that versions with eternity have a much stronger lock down possibility. That being said, maxwells oty black holes and steal aren't to bad. The rest are an issue, as are a couple other things i'm going to keep to myself.
All of that said, i do agree, it doesn't need to be touched on at all. Ghostmare is a fine deck with a plenty of counters to it.
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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456265#msg456265
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 12:35:00 pm »
I think ghostmare is just an example of decks being unfun to play against, as if you don't have the good kind of deck and draw the good cards early you are just screwed, decks that always rack some victories with the double drawing power and/or a x2 or x3 mark and tend to be far too common in the arena compared to creative decks succeeding to win while allowing the opponent to play.

Now removing ghostmares would only make the kind of players using it chose another like :
 - pest based denial decks (a simple 35 cards mono darkness with 6 pests and 6 steals, is all a double drawing deck needs to beat everything but speedbows/cremation decks and the few drawing both a sanctuary and protect artefact early)
 - black holes based denial decks (a simple 35 cards duo gravity darkness with 6 bh and 6 steals or gravity earth with 6 bh 6 quicksands will work even better, not even speaking of 6 devourers, 6 bh, 6 steals in 35 cards)
 - silence + reverse time based decks (6 silences, some eternities or 6 rewinds, are also in the extremely frustrating category if you don't have sanctuaries and quinted creatures early)

In all those cases the strength of the deck doesn't come from the "op" cards used, but their number and frequency in a 35x2 cards deck.

So, to make the arena more interesting and force players to be more creative, I'd suggest to make the minimum number of cards in a deck 40 or 45 if double draw is used, or to limit the number of same card (out of the oracle one) to 4 instead of 6 if the deck has less than 45 cards.

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456266#msg456266
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2012, 12:46:01 pm »
If anything needs to be done (which is not sure) maybe just prevent (like for quicksand, black-hole and silence) to chain it more than twice in a raw ...

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456284#msg456284
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2012, 02:20:03 pm »
If anything needs to be done (which is not sure) maybe just prevent (like for quicksand, black-hole and silence) to chain it more than twice in a raw ...
Isn't it already like this?(IIRC)
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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456315#msg456315
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2012, 05:03:07 pm »
If anything needs to be done (which is not sure) maybe just prevent (like for quicksand, black-hole and silence) to chain it more than twice in a raw ...
Isn't it already like this?(IIRC)
I don't think it is the case for nightmare - but I might be wrong ...

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456332#msg456332
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2012, 05:46:34 pm »
I had to doublecheck this myself because I wasn't sure, but:
Another patch:
- Fixed the bug that didn't allow adding upped cards to the regular deck
- Added a button to test your own Arena deck
- When the AI is drawing 2 cards per turn it will refrain from chaining more than two of the following:
Silence
Nightmare
Earthquake
Black Hole
However, the system isn't foolproof and I've had a fair number of occurrences where the AI chained 3+ of said cards in a row, with the worst being 5 turns of BH spam.
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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456358#msg456358
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2012, 07:04:25 pm »
I just find it interesting that an early sanctuary is one of the counters that works well often but gets stolen...every...freaking....time. Its hard to get the draws and quantum fast enough to have a pc immune sanct. Even the best arena decks do not compose over 50% of what you face so building solely to counter them usually puts you at a larger disadvantage vs whatever else you may face.

I do not believe that anything should be disallowed from arena but have never wrapped my head around the fact that one of the main counters for the deck is countered by steal.(for less power)

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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456460#msg456460
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2012, 01:38:02 am »
It is a bit absurd to ban a card or problem, but I am sick of ghostmare. The other day I ran into a deck with a life nymph as the oracle card and a mark of darkness. It was ghostmare. The guy got a nymph and put up ghostmare with 5 dead card nymphs. Has it really come to this?
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Re: Ghostmare in Arena Decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32857.msg456474#msg456474
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2012, 02:27:38 am »
It is a bit absurd to ban a card or problem, but I am sick of ghostmare. The other day I ran into a deck with a life nymph as the oracle card and a mark of darkness. It was ghostmare. The guy got a nymph and put up ghostmare with 5 dead card nymphs. Has it really come to this?
Yep, unfortunately people will continue doing that and there's not much we can do to stop them. Other than rating them down, of course :|
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