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Offline Atico

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Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437871#msg437871
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 09:50:46 am »
I would like to add:
Aflatoxin: Allow target HP Status. Then Aflatoxin will be more useful, especially in Nymph
Not bad, but I think it would need to be more unique than just a big poison if you targeted the player.
if you're going to do that, then perhaps having it give a status that puts a poison counter on the aflatoxin'd player each turn would suffice for being 'unique' enough. Non-stacking of course, IE two aflatoxins on a player wouldn't give two poison per turn, but the second aflatoxin would give another two flat poison.
I think that Aflatoxin on HP Status should work as simple Poison, so each Afla gives 2 poison ;) 2 Afla = 4 poison. Easy to do. Then Aflatoxin will be useful after kill creature (now there is no sense to have 4-6 Afla in deck) and one of the weakness Nymph (for me Death Nymph is the worst) will be better.
And Aflatoxin should be cheaper...

Offline SnoWeb

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Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437898#msg437898
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 01:56:17 pm »
    My opinion:
    • I think that this change is needed: NovaBone Wall, Skeleton, Earthquake, Fahrenheit.

    • I like: "Aquatic", Abomination, Discord, Aflatoxin, Catapult, Black Hole, Graviton Mercenary, Basilisk Blood, Hermatite Golem, Plate Armor, Horned Frog, Immolation (I like but I would prefer if it generated only fire), Arctic Squid, Blue Crawler, Nymph Queen, Purify, Blessing, Sanctuary, Anubis, Devonian Dragon, Scarab, Nightfall (nice idea), Dimensional Shield and Immortal (but not one without the other).

    • I don't really mind: "Artifacts stack", "Airbourne", "Marks", Butterfly Effect, Pandemonium, Virus, Otyugh, Shrieker, Cockatrice, Emerald Shield, Heal, Mitosis, Thorn Carapace, Ash (bit too much IMO), Fire Spirit, Rage Potion, Flooding (I'd rather have the maintaining cost and no timer), Trident (a priori a bit too strong), Holy Light, Luciferin, Pegasus, Photon, Wyrm, Fog Shield, Thunderstorm (I would prefer a "effective on burrowed creatures - emphasize the earth/air antagonism), Fate Egg (I don't mind but I would rather have an alternate mechanic - see appropriate topic), Drain Life, Minor Vampire, Parasite, Vampire Stiletto, Quintessence, Spark, Turquoise Nymph.

    • I dislike : "Dragonbourne", "Cap", Maxwell's Demon, Titanium Shield, Ash Eater, Fire Bolt, Ice Bolt, Dune Scorpion.

    • I dislike strongly and/or I think it would be toxic for the gameplay: Antimatter, Chimera, Reverse Time.

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Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437900#msg437900
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2011, 02:35:04 pm »
Why death have THAT much debuff seriously ? and buff pest ? :o this is already one of the best card in the game, also buff nightfall and buff vampire HEEEY !

Where do you find that info ?

I like lots of things here but they are other thingsd I really dislike (those I mentionned)
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Offline Jocko

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Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437969#msg437969
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2011, 07:29:00 pm »
SnoWeb said it pretty well to me.

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Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437983#msg437983
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 08:31:16 pm »
Personal opinion:

Quanta Cap raised to 100.
Acceptable, mixed results. Strengthens Firestall (although it's still strong) but enhances Ice Bolt and Drain Life, as well as Fractal Dragons. Seems a lot like a limitless quanta cap. Overall a good idea.

Quote
All non-activated Artifacts now stack, for example cards like Boneyard and Empathic Bond.  Deflagration and Steal each destroy and steal one card from the stack, respectively.  Protect Artifact may only protect one copy in the stack maximum.
Enchant Artifact protecting only one copy in the stack is somewhat strange and hardly code-friendly. Why not keep them distinct? Also, what about shields or weapons? Bonewall in particular.

Quote
"Aquatic " is a new passive ability for underwater creatures including most Water creatures and cards like Horned Frog.
    Flooding:  Only aquatic creatures can harm you, deals 1 damage to non aquatic/flying creatures.  Lasts 2 turns.[/li][/list]
    Makes Flooding a good card, but is not necessarily needed. Flooding at 5 creature spaces might be viable. I'd wait a bit before making such a change (not kidding, a single Octopus leaves only 1 attacking creature to the opponent, and that can be outhealed even by Purifies.

    Quote
    Flying creatures that lose the "Airbourne" abilty take double damage from direct damage effects.
    Not a good change: both Air and Aether have great CC cards, and Bonewall stall increases in power with this due to Flesh Recluse. Web is situational, but the Recluses are not, and Wings is already a great card to combo them with. Not needed and probably damaging.

    Quote
    All Dragons gain the passive ability "Dragonbourne".  Dragonbourne gives a stat increase of +1/+1 for each ten quanta of that creatures Element. 
    I dislike this change. Dragons are mostly balanced cards and are actually very useful in a lot of competitive decks. They do not need a buff. Also, Fahrenheit is bad enough as it is, even without having one for every element. Increased resistance is also bad for dragons like Ruby, which can easily come out at 6+ health late game, negating most CC cards and hitting extremely hard. Also, TU Dragons is a strong stallbreaker even without Dragons having like 15 attack and a lot of hp each. The Web change is only a partial counter to this, as it requires an otherwise useless card in a dragon matchup to be used as a counter, thus increasing Web's value, but not decreasing Dragon's own value by much if at all.

    Quote
    Marks are treated as pillars, no longer limited to 6 per deck.
    Fair.

    Quote
      Abomination:  Takes 1 less damage from direct damage sources. [/li][/list]
      Not really what I'd think about when figuring an Abomination. It needs a slight buff, but maybe something more along the lines of mutation? Perhaps always turns into a mutant when targeted with Mutation effects? Also a buff to unupped Mutation decks which are weak anyway.

      Quote
        Antimatter:  Four turn duration.  Cost changed to :entropy X, where X is the cost of the target creature. [/li][/list]
        Likely not to be coded, and unneeded. Antimatter is a very strong but not broken card. This cripples it way too much. If you want to nerf Antimatter (which I don't think is needed anyway in the current meta) you should increase its cost to 10/8. But that would probably be too much too. I wouldn't nerf it at all.

        Quote
          Butterfly Effect:  Cost reduced to 4 :entropy.
          [/li]Discord:  Cost increased to 4 :entropy, damage increased to 5.[/li][/list]
          Nice and balanced changes.

          Quote
            Maxwell's Demon:  Paradox cost increased to :entropy :entropy :entropy.
            [/li]Pandemonium:  Cost increased to 5 :entropy.[/li][/list]
            I find these largely unneeded. Maxwell is a good check to many offensive threats, but that is something that is needed in a fast-paced metagame like this. Also, it is still trumped by instant CC like Lightning. A nerf is not needed and I'd dislike it.
            Pandemonium is very strong, but 5 :entropy is too much to even play it. Also, what I said above: it's a good card agaisnt the rushes that define this meta. I would agree to a cost increase to 4, but not more.

            Quote
              Nova:  Cost increased to 1 :entropy, generate 12 quanta randomly.[/li][/list]
              Understandable change. Has a very broad effect. I'm torn as to what it would determinate, though. The rainbow deck archetype would be far from gone. It will probably force more mark-dependancy and more quanta producers in a rainbow deck. This is ultimately good.

              Quote
                Alfatoxin: Cost reduced to 6 :death.
                [/li]Skeleton:  Stats increased to 2/2.
                [/li]Virus:  Cost reduced to zero.  Stats changed to 0/1.[/li][/list]
                Understandable changes.

                Quote
                  Bone Wall:  Now gains only 1 shield charge when a creature is killed.
                  [/li]Poison:  Cost increased to 2 :death, inflicts 2 poison damage to a player or 1 poison damage to a creature.[/li][/list]
                  Again punishing the reliable rush-stoppers. Bone Wall would be a lot less useful that way and Poison is a staple of card balance (it's one of those cards that define what balance is, rather than merely being balanced). I dislike both changes.

                  Quote
                    Black Hole:  Reduced to absorb 2 quanta per element.[/li][/list]
                    An unneeded and probably dangerous rainbow buff. The Nova nerf is probably not enough to stop rainbows from running rampart in the meta. Killing their only counter card is not a good move.

                    Quote
                      Catapult:  May now sacrifice your own creatures to deal damage to creatures or players.[/li][/list]
                      Unneeded. Catapult is pretty well balanced now and can create intresting and strong decks.

                      Quote
                        Otyugh:  Stats increased to 0/4.  Devour cost increased to :gravity :gravity.[/li][/list]
                        Probably for the best.

                        Quote
                          Basilisk Blood:  Cost increased to 3 :earth.[/li][/list]
                          Not needed and not really useful. The only thing this does is reducing the impact on Shak'ar in the metagame (which is... not that awesome against human players). This hardly kills this card's CC usage and is only detrimental in situations where it would be splashed or used for the hp gain. Not a useful change.

                          Quote
                            Earthquake:  Now always leaves one pillar or pendulum in the stack.[/li][/list]
                            Understandable change. Earthquake is terribly strong in certain metagames while being next to useless in others.

                            Quote
                              Plate Armor:  Now grants +0/+4.[/li][/list]
                              Not enough to make it really viable. As seen in its buff thread, I'm favoring the +1 attack option.

                              Quote
                                Shrieker:  Cost reduced to 6 :earth.  Stats reduced to 6/3.[/li][/list]
                                Very good change. I'm fully supporting this. It makes Graboid nicely balanced without changing Graboid at all. I like.

                                Quote
                                  Titanium Shield:  Damage reduction increased to 3.[/li][/list]
                                  Probably broken. Diamond is a killer shield against many decks, cutting down unupped elements' damage output by a good chunk. Protected Diamond + healing is something not many decks can overcome.

                                  Quote
                                    Graviton Mercenary:  Each time Graviton Mercenary is delayed it gains +2/+2
                                    [/li]Hermatite Golem:  Cost increased to 5 :earth.  Each time you use a burrow ability, Hermatite Golem gains +1/+1.
                                    [/li]Blue Crawler:water remove 1 poison damage from a creature or player.
                                    [/li]Cockatrice:  Gains +0/+1 each time it is poisoned.
                                    [/li]Horned Frog:  Gains Momentum when underwater (Flooding).[/li][/list]
                                    Rather strange and not really flavorful change for Mercenary and Crawler. However, these cards need a buff.
                                    Hematite Golem is definitely usable and Steel Golem is very strong. A slight buff, perhaps 7-9 hp for the unupped, would be appreciable.
                                    Cockatrice is a fine creature, and so is Frog.

                                    Quote
                                      Emerald Shield:  Cost reduced to 4 :life.
                                      [/li]Heal:  Heal yourself for 20 HP's.  Heal yourself for 30 HP's if you have 10 HP or less.
                                      [/li]Mitosis:  Cost reduced to 4 :life.
                                      [/li]Thorn Carapace:  Cost reduced to 6 :life.[/li][/list]
                                      Solid changes.

                                      Quote
                                        Ash:  Stats reduced to 0/1.
                                        [/li]Immolation:  Cost increased to :fire.  Sacrifice a creature to generate a maxium of 8 :fire quanta and 12 quanta randomly. [/li][/list]
                                        They were nerfed enough as is. I've seen a lot more phoenixes actually die after the hp reduction, and I believe 5 hp to be fine. 4 if need arises, but 1 is definitely too harsh. The random quanta mirror the Nova nerf, but sacrificing a creature is enough of a cost (card disadvantage, unreliability) for the advantages. I'd rather have it produce 6 :fire and 11 non-:fire random quanta.

                                        Quote
                                          Fire Spirit:  Stats increased to 2/2.
                                          [/li]Ash Eater:  Each turn :fire is generated.[/li][/list]
                                          Some more good ideas.

                                          Quote
                                            Fahrenheit:  Cost increased to 4 :fire.  Damage increased to 6.  Deals 1 additional damage per 10 Fire quanta.
                                            [/li]Fire Bolt:  Cost :fire X, where X is the additional damage done.  Deals 3 damage to a creature or player, plus 3 more for every 10 fire quanta.
                                            [/li]Rage Potion:  The target creature gains +4/-4.[/li][/list]
                                            Fahrenheit damage is understandable and welcome. Rage Potion nerf really hurts Firestall and is probably for the best. Fire Bolt's change is unneeded (not that game-changing) and likely difficult to code.

                                            Quote
                                              Arctic Squid:  Freeze cost increased to :water :water :water.[/li][/list]
                                              I'd leave Squid alone. It's a nice card, and like Maxwell, a needed rushstopper.

                                              Quote
                                                Ice Bolt:  Will always freeze the weapon when targeting a player.[/li][/list]
                                                Troublesome change. Likely to produce positive effects, though.

                                                Quote
                                                  Nymph Queen:  Additionally, all other Nymphs gain +2/+2.[/li][/list]
                                                  Strange but nice change. I like.

                                                  Quote
                                                    Purify:  May now target creatures or players.[/li][/list]
                                                    Understandable change.

                                                    Quote
                                                      Trident:  May target pillar stacks or artifact stacks.  Always leaves 1 pillar or artifact in the stack.[/li][/list]
                                                      Probably broken. Needs more thought.

                                                      Quote
                                                        Blessing:  Cost reduced to 2 :light.
                                                        [/li]Holy Light:  Restores up to 20 lost HP's to target creature, removes all negative effects from Light Creatures.
                                                        [/li]Luciferin:  No longer heals for 10 HP's.  Heal 1 HP for each creature that already has "bioluminescence".
                                                        [/li]Pegasus:  Stats increased to 3/3.
                                                        [/li]Photon:  Heal 1 HP if Photon gains the skill "bioluminescence".
                                                        [/li]Sanctuary: Healing decreased to 3 HP per turn.[/li][/list]
                                                        Mostly nice ideas. The only important one is the Sanctuary one, and the Photon change might be overcomplicated. Sanctuary change is understandable, but would warrant a cost decrease to 3|2 at least. Also helps against Discord.

                                                        Quote
                                                          Wyrm:  Stats increased to 3/4.  Dive cost reduced to :air.[/li][/list]
                                                          I'd prefer 4 attack, :air :air Dive, but a buff is needed and this is the right direction.

                                                          Quote
                                                            Fog Shield:  Cost increased to 3 :air.[/li][/list]
                                                            Understandable.

                                                            Quote
                                                              Thunderstorm:  Cost reduced to :air.  Temporarily removes "Airbourne" from enemy creatures for two turns.[/li][/list]
                                                              Combos with a previously disliked effect, but even without that it is an understandable and needed buff. In-element Web is a bit strong, but it has a time limit, so it's a bit like sundial chaining... with some drawbacks. Mainly the two card combo and the chance of playing new creatures. A good idea.

                                                              Quote
                                                                Anubis:  Cost reduced to 7 :time.
                                                                [/li]Devonian Dragon:  Stats changed to 11/4.
                                                                [/li]Dune Scorpion:  Stats increased to 0/3.
                                                                [/li]Fate Egg:  Cost reduced to 1 :time.
                                                                [/li]Scarab:  Stats increased to 3/N.[/li][/list]
                                                                Understandable, solid changes.

                                                                Quote
                                                                  Reverse Time:  Cost changed to :time X, where X is the cost of the target creature.[/li][/list]
                                                                  Dangerous change and difficult to code. I believe Reverse Time is fine and balanced as it is.

                                                                  Quote
                                                                    Drain Life:  Cost reduced to 2 :darkness.
                                                                    [/li]Nightfall:  Playing additional Nightfalls grants one turn of the Cloak effect.
                                                                    [/li]Parasite:  Stats increased to 1/3.[/li][/list]
                                                                    Good changes.

                                                                    Quote
                                                                      Vampire Stiletto:  Cost increased to 2 :darkness.
                                                                      [/li]Minor Vampire:  Stats increased to 3/2.[/li][/list]
                                                                      I don't believe Stiletto warrants the cost increase and Devtal certainly doesn't need such a strong buff.

                                                                      Quote
                                                                        Dimensional Shield:  Cost increased to 7 :aether.[/li][/list]
                                                                        Understandable but debatable change. I don't like this, but I can see it as fair under certain conditions.

                                                                        Quote
                                                                          Immortal:  Gains +1/+0 for each other Immortal you control.
                                                                          [/li]Spark:  Stats increased to 4/0.
                                                                          [/li]Turquoise Nymph:  Immortal.[/li][/list]
                                                                          Good changes.

                                                                          Quote
                                                                            Quintessence:  Upon gaining Immortality, previous skills are now removed.[/li][/list]
                                                                            Bad idea. Quintessence is a good and balanced card. It is not a needed change and it shrinks the metagame.

                                                                            Quote
                                                                              Chimera:  Has the casting cost of all absorbed creatures for targeting purposes.[/li][/list]
                                                                              Not needed if the disliked changes aren't made. Also rather difficult to code.
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                                                                              Offline RavingRabbid

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                                                                              Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg437990#msg437990
                                                                              « Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 09:09:27 pm »
                                                                              Squid gained in usability after getting its cost reduced to :water :water, and it still lacks usage.
                                                                              Also, it's quite a nerf for Trident.
                                                                              The Quintessence nerf is also unnecessary.


                                                                              Then I don't think Holy Light is going to work with Antimatter/Lobotomization.
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                                                                              Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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                                                                              Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg443983#msg443983
                                                                              « Reply #30 on: December 31, 2011, 07:18:43 pm »
                                                                              Thanks for all the feedback guys.  I'll continue making changes (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34667.msg467176#msg467176) based on good suggestions.


                                                                              Hard CC Spells
                                                                                Alfatoxin
                                                                                [/li]
                                                                                Gravity Pull
                                                                                [/li]Acceleration
                                                                                [/li]Fire Bolt
                                                                                [/li]Rage Potion
                                                                                [/li]Ice Bolt
                                                                                [/li]Shockwave
                                                                                [/li]Drain Life
                                                                                [/li]Lightning
                                                                                [/li]Liquid Shadow[/li][/list][td]
                                                                                Soft CC Spells
                                                                                  Antimatter
                                                                                  [/li]Chaos Seed
                                                                                  [/li]Mutation
                                                                                  [/li]Basilisk Blood
                                                                                  [/li]Freeze
                                                                                  [/li]Reverse Time[/li][/list][/td][/tr][/table]
                                                                                  Hard CC Spells are the ones which attack creature defenses.  Soft CC Spells ignore creature defenses.

                                                                                  Spells in general are powerful cards because they're uncounterable in Elements.  Permanents like Artifacts, Weapons, Shields and Creatures can be reacted to, but outside of Silence/denial there is nothing you can do to stop a spell from being cast.

                                                                                  The problem with ignoring creature defenses is that it is a lot harder to balance because the spells aren't going after stats, in fact Soft CC Spells become more efficient the more powerful the target creature is.  I changed Antimatter (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34667.msg467319#msg467319) and Reverse Time (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,34667.msg467375#msg467375) because they're particularly egregious.

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                                                                                  Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg444658#msg444658
                                                                                  « Reply #31 on: January 03, 2012, 04:05:38 am »
                                                                                  I strongly suggest Zanz look at something like this.  This would be great for the game.  I don't necessicarily agree with all the proposed changes, but most of them are great.

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                                                                                  Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg444660#msg444660
                                                                                  « Reply #32 on: January 03, 2012, 04:42:56 am »
                                                                                  I double checked and agreed with The Mormegil's analysis.

                                                                                  Many of the changes are good ideas. Some are not.

                                                                                  In any case, this patch was as well thought out as can be expected of one person and I expect it to be a good starting point to refine and reference.
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                                                                                  Offline Calindu

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                                                                                  Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg444846#msg444846
                                                                                  « Reply #33 on: January 03, 2012, 05:39:02 pm »
                                                                                  Some suggestion aren't that good, but some of them are pure golden

                                                                                  Antimatter- Would make it UP
                                                                                  Hermatite Golem- Why?
                                                                                  Titanium Shield- 3 block would make Emerald Shield good only for anti-spell.
                                                                                  Cockatrice- Why?
                                                                                  Heal- Why?
                                                                                  Blue Crawler- Why?
                                                                                  Luciferin- Why?
                                                                                  Photon- Why?
                                                                                  Wyrm- Let's not make Pegasus useless.
                                                                                  Reverse Time- A way bigger nerf than neeeded.
                                                                                  Quintessence- Would make it useless, as it's used mostly to protect your creatures skills.
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                                                                                  Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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                                                                                  Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg444996#msg444996
                                                                                  « Reply #34 on: January 04, 2012, 01:00:12 am »
                                                                                  On the flip side, the anti-CC spell Quintessence is another ultra-powerful spell in Elements.  Uncounterable invincibility from your hand is too much when you can combine it with powerful activated abilities.  There is a reason most of the creatures with really good abilities are weaklings, if you want to use their abilities with impunity you should have to protect them with more than just a 4 :aether spell.  'GG combos like Quint + Lava Golem, or Quint + Oty, or Quint + Squid are actually shrinking the metagame.  Creature defenses should matter, Hp should matter.. and spell form Invincibility is too good.

                                                                                  Immortality on a stick with Anubis is balanced.  It's expensive and you at least get a shot at Anubis before he makes everything shiny.  The comes into play Immortal buff to Turquoise Nymph may be pushing it, but it's vastly underpowered in it's current form.

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                                                                                  Re: Elements Patch 2.p https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34667.msg445022#msg445022
                                                                                  « Reply #35 on: January 04, 2012, 01:56:47 am »
                                                                                  On the flip side, the anti-CC spell Quintessence is another ultra-powerful spell in Elements.  Uncounterable invincibility from your hand is too much when you can combine it with powerful activated abilities.  There is a reason most of the creatures with really good abilities are weaklings, if you want to use their abilities with impunity you should have to protect them with more than just a 4 :aether spell.  'GG combos like Quint + Lava Golem, or Quint + Oty, or Quint + Squid are actually shrinking the metagame.  Creature defenses should matter, Hp should matter.. and spell form Invincibility is too good.

                                                                                  Immortality on a stick with Anubis is balanced.  It's expensive and you at least get a shot at Anubis before he makes everything shiny.  The comes into play Immortal buff to Turquoise Nymph may be pushing it, but it's vastly underpowered in it's current form.
                                                                                  Quint is countered by Death, Fire AND Life. It is far from uncounterable invincibility.
                                                                                  Casting Quint is theoretically equivalent to the creature having +5|+4 casting cost. 30 hp costs much less than that.
                                                                                  The "GG combos" are poorly named. A key trademark of a Stall deck is its inevitable win condition. The key trademark of a Rush deck is its speed. Slow but Inevitable vs Fast but Risky. The match between Stall [Quint + Lava Golem + Control cards] and Rush [2 Lava Golems + More Rush cards] is not obviously going to favor either side.
                                                                                  The hp of a immaterial creatures still matter against the non targeting CC.
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                                                                                  "Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
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                                                                                  anything
                                                                                  blarg: