Changing ultimate spells

[the Sage]

There are a few ultimate spell ideas, and they drain all quanta of a type (like miracle and fractal, but I'm sure we'll see others).
I think rainbow decks do well enough as it is, so why not alter the mechanic to drain ALL quanta instead of all quanta of that type?
Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.

[King of doom]

There are a few ultimate spell ideas, and they drain all quanta of a type (like miracle and stone skin, and I'm sure we'll see others).
I think rainbow decks do well enough as it is, so why not alter the mechanic to drain ALL quanta instead of all quanta of that type?
Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.

stone skin doesn't drain all of your earth qaunta

[the Sage]

Thanks for your opinion on this idea. (corrected)

[trozman]

For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.

Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)

Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.

Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).

Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.

If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage.

[guolin]

For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.

Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)

Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.

Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).

Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.

If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage.

...what's your point?

Rainbows shouldn't be able to use these spells, really. It seems like a good idea, though maybe a wee bit harsh.

[the Sage]

For obvious reasons this is a bad idea.
Like's compare Miracle (light user) to Miracle (rainbow user). Let's say both have played 12 pillars (12 light vs 12 rainbow). Let's say mark of light vs mark of entropy (entropy rainbow)
Light user plays Miracle -> next turn regains 13 light quanta -> this is enough to play pretty much ANY light card, including another miracle or a dragon.
Rainbow user plays Miracle -> next turn gains an average of 3 quanta for each element (4 for entropy) -> this is only enough to play weak cards (and probably nothing at all).
Furthermore, it also prevents any rainbow user from using dissipation shield if they want to use miracle or fractal. Once again, defeats the purpose of being a rainbow.
If you want a card that drains all quanta, it should be an ultimate card that USES every type of quanta (let's say 6 of each)... but I'm sure if we had that kind of card, people would complain that it is giving rainbow an advantage.

OK, say they both have 12 pillars. Rainbow can go ahead and play all he wants except light (11/12 of his cards) 3 quanta per type per turn, and will be able to afford miracle after 4 turns. And afterwards continue merrily on his way spamming shields, shards and creeps. Light will actually have to save a full turn of quantum production for miracle in advance. If he saves more, he will lose more as well.

My point is, these spells are supposed to be ULTIMATE. They do something really cool BUT drain all you have left. For a rainbow, the bonus is the same (often more considering synergies) but the penalty is only that you lose all you have left... of one of the twelve options you've got going at the same time. You play miracle AND can play 5 creatures the next turn. You fractal something AND you can still buff the resulting creeps on the same turn. I think rainbow is dodging much of the penalty of ultimate spells, without getting less benefit from these spells. I see this suggestion as a minor nerf for rainbow decks, which might actually need a bigger nerf IMHO.
Additionally, rainbow will often not have (or need) a large supply of a single quantum type. An ultimate fire card, for instance, would be disastrous for your fahrenheit and fire bolts. A rainbow deck: ah, what the hell, let's play doomsday (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,11365.msg149675#msg149675) and see what happens, I have 160 hp anyway.

[wittyname6]

Rainbows are 4x less efficient than mono decks. A mono pillar can produce 1 quanta per turn which is all the person needs. Rainbows need 4 turns of equally distributed quanta to get one of each element. The spells use a lot of quanta so a rainbow user might have trouble getting enough to play it. Plus since it is so expensive and consumes all your quanta it essentially stops you from getting any other cards of that element.

[Bloodshadow]

Is this an attempt to nerf Fractal? It's a bit too harsh to me.

[wittyname6]

No, I'm saying I think fractal would be difficult to use effectively in rainbow decks. But I do think fractal should be nerfed

[Krahhl]

Mono decks will be unaffected, but it will make rainbowing a bit harder.

How many people use fractal and miracle in a mono deck? They slow things down too much. If not rainbow, these decks are usually at least duo.

This won't make rainbowing harder, it will make it near impossible.

Rainbows have many advantages and disadvantages compared to a mono deck. Being able to use fractal or miracle and have quanta of other elements left is simply one of the advantages. Duo decks can do this anyway.

One of the disadvantages is that overall, a rainbow deck will need four pillars to get one quanta of any given element except the marked one. A mono deck only needs one. This means that while a rainbow can use cards of any element, they can only use cheap ones since quanta production is slower for each element.

If miracle and fractal were to set every number back to zero, it would take way too long to get enough quanta for anything. Even duo decks would be greatly hurt.


Besides, cards that cost multiple elements have been discussed. It's been concluded that the game code would require too much reworking to implement them anytime soon.

[Kuross]

Perhaps the spin here is to look at the reason fractal and miracle got hit with the nerf bat. They have a cost as a result of an epic effect that requires a hefty cost to play. Any card that requires that kind of drawback should be carefully reviewed to avoid further Fractal issues rather than look to put in more. Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit and pursuing cards with epic costs/drawbacks would be cool, but I think one should carefully consider why it needs to have a drawback to be uses in the first place.

Maybe just thinking of cool, epic cards then scaling them back before sliding them into the card list might be better? Safer to have weaker cards that need upgrading rather than OP cards that need scaling back.

[the Sage]

Is this an attempt to nerf Fractal? It's a bit too harsh to me.

Yes, it's an attempt to nerf fractal, miracle, and any future Ultimate spells for non-mono use.
So actually, it's an attempt to nerf rainbows mostly.
I suppose you could find an intermediate nerf that doesn't affect duo's as much, by saying it drains all  /  / w/e and up to 5 quanta of every other type. that way rainbows still get hit hard(ish), but duo's will not be completely undermined.

Maybe just thinking of cool, epic cards then scaling them back before sliding them into the card list might be better? Safer to have weaker cards that need upgrading rather than OP cards that need scaling back.

I don't know... the mechanic of having a drain all quanta spell seems nice. I'd like to see one for every quantum type (preferably with the proposed modification).

How many people use fractal and miracle in a mono deck? They slow things down too much. If not rainbow, these decks are usually at least duo.

You're right, people don't. If you implement this rule, you could even think of lowering the base cost, making these spells more accessible to mono decks.

Besides, cards that cost multiple elements have been discussed. It's been concluded that the game code would require too much reworking to implement them anytime soon.

Ummm... It would still cost (require in order to play) the same. It would just also drain more. Since there is code for black hole, it shouldn't be that hard, methinks?

This won't make rainbowing harder, it will make it near impossible.

Are you saying you can hardly think of a working rainbow deck that does not rely on miracle and fractal? That seems like a rather unlikely statement.