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Offline Dm

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287196#msg287196
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 12:18:12 am »
Because you waste 10 (so or less) quanta playing the dragon.

Let's see some possibilities..


-  I use a mono life, take three turns to get a dragon (That's average) and I use Mitosis on it (4 turns.) Then I use SoR and start going off.

- I use a rainbow. Throw some SNova's out for fun, bring out a shiny BL, throw a upped mutation (How much wasted? 2 Entropy pends, say, 3 SNova, a BL and a Mutation? Sounds good. )
- I get a dragon with 1/2 mitosis for set element. Who cares, I got SNova.
- 6 Turns later (or 3.) I got a total of 4 (or 7) Dragons at your face.

Sure, is rare, but still. What?

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287259#msg287259
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 01:31:04 am »
Because you waste 10 (so or less) quanta playing the dragon.

Let's see some possibilities..


-  I use a mono life, take three turns to get a dragon (That's average) and I use Mitosis on it (4 turns.) Then I use SoR and start going off.

- I use a rainbow. Throw some SNova's out for fun, bring out a shiny BL, throw a upped mutation (How much wasted? 2 Entropy pends, say, 3 SNova, a BL and a Mutation? Sounds good. )
- I get a dragon with 1/2 mitosis for set element. Who cares, I got SNova.
- 6 Turns later (or 3.) I got a total of 4 (or 7) Dragons at your face.

Sure, is rare, but still. What?
You have been advocating for a cheap solution to a situation that has not be proven to be a problem.
If Mutants being Dragons AND getting mitosis for 1/2 is a problem it would not be a sign to remove Mitosis it would be a sign that the average value of mutation/fallen elf has increased sufficiently to deserve a casting cost increase.

So the answer to the OP is that, regardless of the effect on mutants that a Mitosis skill has, there is no reason to remove mitosis from the skill list. Deja Vu Dragons are also nasty but they were balanced by dilution, unreliability and a high cost for mutation. Please use the balance tools as they are designed.
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Offline teffy

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287331#msg287331
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2011, 03:26:18 am »
I miss an important option in the poll:
Mitosis shall not be removed from skill list, but it shall cost the costs of the creature, not 1-2 quanta.
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Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287408#msg287408
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2011, 05:26:13 am »
Blue Priest:

1st, Im not complaining about FG at all, and I was just clarifying that. I think Mitosis 1 Nymphs simply shouldnt exist from a RoL (or anything cheap) and a Mutation, this for all PVP and PVE. Not complaining about Chaos Lord.

2nd, I was not contraditory. 3 quanta creatures would already benefit from 1-2 Mitosis. This, however, would solve the problem about expensive creatures. Graboid is another question. Some criatures (Silurian Dragon and Immortall, if Im right) are not in the mutation list with apparent no reason, while graboid is, giving it unfair advantage when its created by mutation. But lets forget this for a while, because I (or anyone) could create another thread about that. Why you have removed the part I was saying this beats the card purpose, I dont know.

3rd, when we use mutation as CC? Mostly vs FG, when the damage will already kill you and you need get rid of it, even giving the opponent a potentially dangerous skill. In fact, I bet if you have used the old timebow deck, you probably lost some games because you gave opponent a skill you wouldnt. The very best use of mutation is in your creatures (unless its unupped, of course, when theres a bigger chance of abomination / death than a useful mutant).

Anyway, what I was saying is that mutation already have some very good skills and dont need a buff like this. There are already some skills your opponent will most probably quit (PVP) if you get them on the start. This is another of them, that I think its unnecessary. And thanks by remembering me about guard, lol.

Ok, it doesnt happens all the time. And when it happens, is it ok? You really think its fair having this happening when it happens? I dont, and even having other powerful skills, like I said, I think this is the most unfair situation I have seen in this game. Look at the skill list again. All skills are passive or cost something not that far from 1-2. Even Destroy, is alike the cost in Pulverizer. But this, lowering it from 9-10 to 1-2, is it fair? OMG.

Teffy, like I said, I will later edit the poll with some more options. But, I have thought about this option (cost the creature cost), and I thought it would just be out of the mutant purpose of getting cheap skills. For this I have suggested removing. Anyway, its an option I will add.

OldTrees, I agree that the average value of mutation is increasing. But I dont think increasing the cast cost of Mutation / Elf is needed. In fact, I think it doesnt correct the broken situation (reducing cost from 10 to 1) and wouldnt bring other benefits. If we shouldnt remove Mitosis from skill list, we could then adjust it another way.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287422#msg287422
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2011, 06:15:56 am »
OldTrees, I agree that the average value of mutation is increasing. But I dont think increasing the cast cost of Mutation / Elf is needed. In fact, I think it doesnt correct the broken situation (reducing cost from 10 to 1) and wouldnt bring other benefits. If we shouldnt remove Mitosis from skill list, we could then adjust it another way.
On this we agree.

I personally believe that if the average value of a skill increases then the casting cost of creatures that naturally have that skill should increase. Aka If mutation becomes more valuable then it should cost more.

The other option is losing the 1-2 quanta rule. This rule is a valuable one because it reduces the randomness from the player's point of view hence giving the Entropy player more of a controlling luck vibe than the being ruled by luck vibe. If the first option is possible it is preferred on the metagame level.
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Offline Essence

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287423#msg287423
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2011, 06:18:52 am »
Quote
Ok, it doesnt happens all the time. And when it happens, is it ok? You really think its fair having this happening when it happens?
This is much akin to objecting to Pandemonium on the basis that it might TU all of your creatures onto your opponent's field.  Yes, a spell that does that consistently for 5 :entropy would be broken -- and yes, in the minute percentage of games in which it does happen, it sucks for the player it happens to.  However, Elements is -- and must be -- balanced at the metagame level, not the individual game level.  As a strategy on the whole, Mitosis Mutants is nonexistent, for the same reason that PandaUniverse is nonexistent -- it's just too rare to count on as a strategy.

If we were to worry about game balance on the level of each individual game, we'd have to outlaw hard-counter cards like Sanctuary, Dimension Shield, and Purify outright, because they completely shut down decks and utterly dominate some individual games.  Fortunately, we don't -- and because we don't, Mitosis Mutants cannot be considered a valid issue unless you make the claim that it imbalances the Mutation mechanic as a whole.  Is that actually your claim?
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Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg287577#msg287577
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 02:28:19 pm »
This is much akin to objecting to Pandemonium on the basis that it might TU all of your creatures onto your opponent's field.  Yes, a spell that does that consistently for 5 :entropy would be broken -- and yes, in the minute percentage of games in which it does happen, it sucks for the player it happens to.  However, Elements is -- and must be -- balanced at the metagame level, not the individual game level.  As a strategy on the whole, Mitosis Mutants is nonexistent, for the same reason that PandaUniverse is nonexistent -- it's just too rare to count on as a strategy.

If we were to worry about game balance on the level of each individual game, we'd have to outlaw hard-counter cards like Sanctuary, Dimension Shield, and Purify outright, because they completely shut down decks and utterly dominate some individual games.  Fortunately, we don't -- and because we don't, Mitosis Mutants cannot be considered a valid issue unless you make the claim that it imbalances the Mutation mechanic as a whole.  Is that actually your claim?
I have quickly counted 38 creatures that cost 5 quanta or more. So its not rare Mitosis is over a creature that being created for 1-2 quanta is an unfair cost reduction compared to the other skills Mutation can create. Nothing that can be compared to Pandemonium TUing 23 creatures in a row. If it was this low probability, we wouldnt talk about this. Its probably around 2-3%. But I could ask the same question, if this was never going to happen, why not remove? Because we both know it happens, the difference here is that I dont want what I think its a broken possibility, and you probably wants it.

Its not a try to balance individual games, even why Mutation / Elf are not the most played cards, and like people said, even when played, its not that common. The point is that Mutation shouldnt be able to create infinite Nymphs (or any expensive creatures) for 1, thats an unbalanced situation in Mutation mechanic. The mechanic itself is not broken, just Mitosis skill.

I think what can justify Mitosis in mutants skill list. Its not a creature skill, its a spell that affects creatures, the single one in the list. Other skills have costs alike to mutants cost, costing 1-2, and just a few costing 3, while Mitosis could cost anything from 0 to 13. While giving this unfair reduction in cost, Mitosis beat card purposes of both Mutation and Mitosis itself. Say me, why is Mitosis so necessary in the list? What well are we doing keeping it? If we just want variety, replace it by Dead/Alive, Web, attack poison like Scorpions, quanta generation, Psyonic Wave, Steam, Immortality (Anubis skill), Vampire, Stone Form... there are lot of creature skills that are not in the list and could be, fitting both theme and cost. If removing variety is the problem, there is also a solution.

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg290479#msg290479
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 08:00:36 pm »
Well, looks like no one would give us more ideas, so to me its time to restart the poll with more options :D

2 votes per people. 8)

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg291469#msg291469
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2011, 01:07:42 am »
I got a better idea. Why not instead of waiting for the mutation combo, I just play a Dragon, then mitosis, and cast SoR on it? That seems a lot simpler
This

A dragon mutant with mitosis has a 0.65% chance of happening, and it takes at least two cards. (1/23 of getting the skill, 15% chance to get a dragon)

The SoR mitodragon combo has a 100% chance of happening and requires 3 cards. Yes, it requires a fair bit more quanta to set off, but it actually requires less quanta once you have it out, and it's NEARLY 200 TIMES AS RELIABLE.

Elements is a card game. Luck is a part of card games, which means sometimes you will lose because you're unlucky. You getting unlucky does not mean something is overpowered.

That being said, if mutant decks become a problem (as of now they are not to my knowledge), I wouldn't object to adding more "junk" skills to the mutation list.

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg291487#msg291487
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2011, 01:31:10 am »
Deja vu is just as broken. The ability itself is meant to copy a 1/1 or 2/2 creatures, and is utilized to copy a buffed creature. It is in no way balanced to copy a 14/5 creature from a 10/1 creature. However, looking at the chances for everything, the card "mutation" is still balanced, even with the small chance of mitogons.

Offline MarvaddinTopic starter

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg291767#msg291767
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2011, 03:36:58 pm »
I got a better idea. Why not instead of waiting for the mutation combo, I just play a Dragon, then mitosis, and cast SoR on it? That seems a lot simpler
This

A dragon mutant with mitosis has a 0.65% chance of happening, and it takes at least two cards. (1/23 of getting the skill, 15% chance to get a dragon)

The SoR mitodragon combo has a 100% chance of happening and requires 3 cards. Yes, it requires a fair bit more quanta to set off, but it actually requires less quanta once you have it out, and it's NEARLY 200 TIMES AS RELIABLE.

Elements is a card game. Luck is a part of card games, which means sometimes you will lose because you're unlucky. You getting unlucky does not mean something is overpowered.

That being said, if mutant decks become a problem (as of now they are not to my knowledge), I wouldn't object to adding more "junk" skills to the mutation list.
Paying 12 for a dragon, 4/5 for Mitosis and 3 for SoR is ok. This is what these cards are supposed to do. You will require probably a good amount of turns to get it, in fact. Paying 0 for a Photon and 2/3 for a Mutation, in like 1-2 turns, and get these is not what these cards are supposed to do, I think. Beyond dragons, there are other expensive creatures, so chance is like 2-3% really. But again, if this thing is not going to happen (the chances are slim), what is the point about not removing? If I dislike something that happens 0,65% chance (according to you), and you comes to say it doesnt matter, then what you are saying is "removing is unnecessary, but it could be removed, it doesnt matter at all", right?

All arguments I got until now were saying "it doesnt matter, chances are slim", so looks like everyone thinks it could or not be removed, people are indifferent. I didnt get 1 single argument giving a reason why we should keep it. If you have, I would like to know.

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Re: Broken Mitosis Mutants https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22630.msg291771#msg291771
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2011, 03:44:17 pm »
You misunderstand. We are saying it SHOULD be kept because it isnt OP. The arguments are that we should keep it due to the fact that its rare. Not that we dont care.
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