Anubis Idea

[cipher_nemo]

This is not MtG, people. Creatures in Elements do not block.

That is probably the best argument to show that the immortal ability is just fine in Elements.

Remember how MTG people complained about Darksteel?

[cipher_nemo]

Oh man I wanna use that quote for ever "This is not MtG people. Creatures in Elements do not block."

Hehehe, indeed. SG has a good one there worthy of quoting.

[Cless]

I'm a pretty serious Yu-Gi-Oh! deckbuilder and player, so I'd say I'm biased towards the game. However, the lack of a major resource such as mana (and its resultant ability to dictate the tempo of a game) tend to limit one's ability to use Yu-Gi-Oh! as a measuring stick against other TCGs. It's quite nice to be able to switch between these games to see them with different perspectives. Anyways, on to the analysis.

There are a few cards in Yu-Gi-Oh! that are very popular at the moment. With the advent of Synchros, the ability to summon cards like Stardust Dragon (who can stop destruction cards once per turn by temporarily leaving the field) and Colossal Fighter (who has high attack power and can costlessly resummon himself if killed in battle) is game-changing. Summoning a level 8 synchro (which is easy) gives you either option, basically granting you a limited immortality against a specific type of destruction. The power of Stardust Dragon and Colossal Fighter are directly related to the amount and type of destruction your opponent can wield.

In Elements, you basically have two considerations: being targeted by an effect and taking lethal damage. Immortality renders them both moot (with the exception of poison damage already being applied). However, as opposed to other games, your immortal creature is unable to specifically save you from taking damage. This ultimately leaves the niche of an immortal creature who can improve your position with impunity. An immortal Otyugh or weapon would be the standard, combined with Sundial, Phase Shield, etc. leaves you in a position to control your opponents field while stalling the game until you have an assured victory. Against such a position, your only choices are (1) race to do lethal damage with no regard to positioning, (2) immortalize your own resources, or (3) never allow the game to reach this state.

In Elements (so far), option 1 requires a dedicated deck focused on this end. Option 2 is a dark and evil road I refuse to look down. Option 3 seems to be the best of them, making the question of balance dependent on the ability to prevent someone from creating this game state. Is Anubis easily enough played that one can immortalize balance-shifting cards like Otyugh to prevent other strategies from being prominent? Is Protect Artifact on a Pulverizer enough to nullify otherwise viable strategies? These are the questions.

[Scaredgirl]

But in most games like this one there is at least some way to kill a creature with some form of immortality, that's why multiple strategies are necessary.

Why is it necessary? Table full of immaterial creatures does not equal a win.

There is no need to kill immaterial creatures. All you need to do is heal the damage or kill the opponent faster.

Immaterial creatures bring an interesting aspect to this game and there is absolutely no need to do anything about them.

This is not MtG, people. Creatures in Elements do not block.

[Scaredgirl]

Yeah... Seriously, why is everyone comparing Elements to MtG?! I'm really pissed off by this. Elements is not a freaking MtG clone, and we don't have to take everything from MtG.

Because MtG is the number one CCG in the world.

MtG has the same status in CCG world as WoW has in MMO world. Both of these games are not "best" by any means but they are hands down the most popular and that's all that matters. There's a saying in marketing: "It's better to be first than to be better".

I personally find MtG to be quite boring compared to many other CCG's because MtG emphasizes too much on deck building. Once you've built your deck and the game starts, there very little room for strategy. Usually the guy with the best deck and best luck of the draw wins. In some other CCG's I can take a very bad deck and still win just because I'm better at strategy than the other guy.

[Sigh]

But in most games like this one there is at least some way to kill a creature with some form of immortality, that's why multiple strategies are necessary.

[Tonberry]

Yea I was going to do the "kill them before they kill you" argument because that is the point anyways but got beat to it.

Oh man I wanna use that quote for ever "This is not MtG people. Creatures in Elements do not block."

I just want to add if the other person managed to get a table full of immortals you deserve to lose for doing nothing.

[cipher_nemo]

Just to put this out there: I honestly had never even heard of M:TG until I came here and had beforehand  assumed that Yu-Gi-Oh! was the leading CCG. And before you start throwing fruit at me for my incompetence, at least I didn't assume it was Pokemon... ^.^

LOL! Nah, no one is throwing fruit at you. We're just dumbfounded with slack jaws that you never heard of MTG until now even though you play Elements and Yu-Gi-Oh.

Maybe this is true for random Friday Night Magic tourneys, but I believe MtG is much more complex than deck building and luck of the draw.

I agree to a point, as there is a certain amount of strategy involved. But that strategy is just as much as almost any CCG with PvP and a good selection of cards. In most CCGs, going up against a deck you can't identify yet makes you a little leery of just throwing out anything. And if you think you can spot a trend, theme, or specific build in the deck, that's when strategy comes into play. Point is, that's almost all CCGs. MTG is still heavier on deck building and working combos than any other CCG I've ever heard of or played. It's mostly because MTG has many years and card runs that sometime produce powerful and interesting combinations with each other. Many of those have been discovered so far, but with each series release it can take months for someone to make that first build with a new and unique combination.

I played MTG for a moderate amount of time, from 7th edition through 9th edition, Darksteel, and Fifth Dawn, and finished right after Kamigawa. It just became too much to collect and too much time sorting through countless cards, both physical and online (MTG Online). I sold all of my cards and my Magic Online account. It was becoming too much. It has always had an emphasis on deck building (as SG mentioned), but with the new series around that time the combos were getting insane. This was especially true for multi-player games of 4-6 people online. People who won rainbow matches and group matches had Wishes (ie: Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, etc.) that allowed you to pull any card out of your library and put it into your hand. This was Library (your card collection), not deck. In r/l games, wish decks weren't much of a problem for some reason. In person for casual Friday Magic games, I was always competing with near-professionals who had pretty much the entire old-school "Power 9" set, all of the older, more expensive cards, and annoyingly cheap quick-lock or quick-win combo decks. Very few "casual" players where I am.

But it wasn't all bad. I enjoyed the times when we did tournaments with booster packs. Everyone brought a few booster packs, took out the rares and put them in pile, then built our decks from these booster packs commons and uncommons. We ran our local tournament, then ranked everyone based on wins and losses. Those higher in the rankings got first pick of the rares to keep. Everyone got the same number of rares that they brought, but only the winners got to bring home the really good rares.

But as far as playing against someone else's deck they built with their own cards, it gets old. Either I got lucky with my good (but not pro) decks at which point my opponent called it "cheap", or they won and I called their decks "cheap", lol. Playing against near-pro combo decks is not fun because they're playing their own game without you. Either they get their combo to work and win or they don't and fall victim to whatever you have, and vice-versa. Alone, counters and destroy spells in any deck don't stop a fast combo as much as you'd expect them to. This is where the strategy comes into play because if you have something to stop their combo from locking, you better guess correctly where to break that chain. And since I don't care to memorize every single near-pro and pro combo deck out there, I obviously may guess incorrectly.

In short, it's much more fun to play with a more limited number of cards and combinations than MTG has. Elements is good, but it could use just a few more to keep it interesting. Right now there are very few good combinations in Elements, and all of those are used in almost everyone's end-game deck. Only difference is how many of each card, and if auxiliary/supporting cards (those not needed for the combos) are thrown in.

[jmizzle7]

I personally find MtG to be quite boring compared to many other CCG's because MtG emphasizes too much on deck building. Once you've built your deck and the game starts, there very little room for strategy. Usually the guy with the best deck and best luck of the draw wins. In some other CCG's I can take a very bad deck and still win just because I'm better at strategy than the other guy.

Maybe this is true for random Friday Night Magic tourneys, but I believe MtG is much more complex than deck building and luck of the draw. Sure, there are certain cards that are better in different formats, but at the highest level of competition (Pro Tour and Grand Prix, for example) the outcome of a match is determined largely on playing correctly than what cards you get in your opening hand. This is especially true in mirror matches.

[Sigh]

Just to put this out there: I honestly had never even heard of M:TG until I came here and had beforehand  assumed that Yu-Gi-Oh! was the leading CCG. And before you start throwing fruit at me for my incompetence, at least I didn't assume it was Pokemon... ^.^;

[cipher_nemo]

First of all, you're using bad terminology.  Your library is your deck.  And wishes in tournament play certainly did not allow what you describe.  In tournament play, their errata was that the "outside of game" was the "removed from game" zone and your sideboard.  So effectively, with wishes, you were smushing several cards into one, since you could wish for an answer out of your sideboard against your worst matches.

This wasn't how Magic Online worked. But it was how MTG worked in tournaments, you are correct. But that sideboard can be anything people want to put there, which can be any set of cards for any situation.

Simply, MtG became too expensive to play, that's all.  Considering that the aggression deck in Mirrodin literally got *banned* from the environment, and that the better decks such as Mono-White Control were simply all the white chase rares, the idea that you had to have a deck worth as much as a decent laptop just to compete in tournaments was absurd.

Expense is relative. What's expensive to you is not expensive to someone else. So while it was too expensive for you to play, it wasn't necessarily expensive for others (hence why it's still the most popular CCG out there).

As for cards as expensive as a laptop, you're probably referring to the Black Lotus. Very few tournament level cards costs hundreds of dollars. And even then, you can get a well used or newer edition one for less for many cards (but I know many tournament cards were only released in their own named sets, outside of the editions). If you really want to play tournament and be able to match cards with tournament decks, it's an investment of a grand or two. It's not really that expensive for everyone since tournament rewards far outweigh the investment (if you win one of the prizes).

But I was talking about casual Friday MTG environments in my previous post, not official tournaments. In that setting, money has much less to do with anything. In fact, some of our casual players used copies of cards to play (put them in sleeves, etc.) for the more expensive decks.

[Demongod]

First of all, you're using bad terminology.  Your library is your deck.  And wishes in tournament play certainly did not allow what you describe.  In tournament play, their errata was that the "outside of game" was the "removed from game" zone and your sideboard.  So effectively, with wishes, you were smushing several cards into one, since you could wish for an answer out of your sideboard against your worst matches.

Simply, MtG became too expensive to play, that's all.  Considering that the aggression deck in Mirrodin literally got *banned* from the environment, and that the better decks such as Mono-White Control were simply all the white chase rares, the idea that you had to have a deck worth as much as a decent laptop just to compete in tournaments was absurd.