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Offline Chemist

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg93132#msg93132
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 10:42:44 am »
I've suggested this a couple of times before -- in 3 most important things (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1431.140.html) (reply 143) and Auction (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7724.0.html) (reply 18).

  • Buying cards:
    • the price for each card should be the average of the prices that sellers are asking for it
    • the player-bazaar decides at random which seller to buy the card from (with money from its sales)
    • I need to spend a "rare coin" to buy an ungrindable card
  • Selling cards:
    • I can't ask for less than the computer-bazaar would give me, or more than it would take
    • I get a "rare coin" if I put an ungrindable card up for sale, which I need to give back in order to take that card down
    • this is the only way to get "rare coins"
  • Collecting money:
    • the player-bazaar has decided to buy my card (to sell to another player)
    • I go to bazaar and click "player bazaar"
    • money gets transferred instantly to my account
This system sounds great. It both thwarts electrum transfers and keeps rares just as rare as they were.

The only part I'm not sure about is the "decides at random which seller to buy the card from". I'd weigh it so that the chance to buy from a particular person is negatively correlated to their asking price. Sellers would get their requested amounts and buyers would always pay the average price, while the bazaar itself would neither earn or lose electrum on average. I'd also put a soft cap on the amount of electrum requested for a card, making it so that the bazaar never takes the card from a person asking more than three times the average asking price. A hard cap might also be required to prevent people from artificially inflating card prices with alt accounts (or maybe the average calculation could ignore the extreme values on the high end.)

Offline tyranim

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg93831#msg93831
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2010, 03:03:55 am »
hm.... i dont really see a way it can be abused, and its a way to get rares without having to farm for them. maybe make it to where you cant sell nymphs? zanz doesnt want nymphs aquireable outside the oracle
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Offline Zac33333

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg101715#msg101715
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2010, 09:45:49 pm »
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8411.0/topicseen.html


Scared, does this mean its..

COLLABORATION TIME?! Lol. Maybe we can put this together, although the idea of this does sound better than mine :).

Unfortuneatley, I dont like the part about players doing stuff like setting a price of there own. I mean, I think it would just make people put nymphs for sale for like 10k and maybe even do a quick trade, where they put something like an eternity for 1gp, refresh, change accs, and buy it. :|

Offline tyranim

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg101754#msg101754
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2010, 10:20:08 pm »
nymphs shouldnt even be sellable in this player's bazaar. zanz doesnt want nymphs to be aquirable through any means other than oracle
my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard and they're like "its better than yours" damn right, its better than yours! i can teach you but i'd have to charge!

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg103802#msg103802
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2010, 05:17:56 pm »
The only part I'm not sure about is the "decides at random which seller to buy the card from". I'd weigh it so that the chance to buy from a particular person is negatively correlated to their asking price. Sellers would get their requested amounts and buyers would always pay the average price, while the bazaar itself would neither earn or lose electrum on average. I'd also put a soft cap on the amount of electrum requested for a card, making it so that the bazaar never takes the card from a person asking more than three times the average asking price. A hard cap might also be required to prevent people from artificially inflating card prices with alt accounts (or maybe the average calculation could ignore the extreme values on the high end.)
Weights could be factored into the random decision -- the winner of a raffle is still random, even if some people bought more tickets than others. (In this case, buying more tickets = asking a cheaper price.)

By "with money from its sales," I meant that the bazaar would never lose money, or at least limit its losses -- each sale would increase the bazaar's electrum supply by the average price, then decrease it by the chosen seller's price, and it would never choose a seller it couldn't afford to pay. As for not gaining electrum, it could factor its supply of electrum into its calculation of the average prices (subtracting part of it from the total for each card, so that all of it is subtracted from the total for all cards).

Hard ceilings for rares, if included, should probably be 216 plus the quantum cost for grindables, and 1350 plus the quantum cost for ungrindables, to continue the pattern started by the commons: buy price - sell price = (sell price - quantum cost)/2. But I don't think they should be included -- people selling purple nymphs for 10k isn't necessarily a bad thing, if others are willing to pay 10k to turn a nymph purple. (I've already said, on the other hand, that they shouldn't be able to sell eternities for less than the 150 electrum the computer-bazaar offers.)

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg103877#msg103877
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2010, 06:57:51 pm »
I think I have the solution: an auction.

A player who has a card has the option of adding it to the pile of auctionable cards.  It costs them 20 electrum to do this.

Then, every specific card (i.e. "Eternity (Elite)" has it's own constant auction going, with one copy of that card being sold every hour (or two or four) to the current highest bidder.  As soon as the card is auctioned off, the player who owned that card gets the money and the player who bought it gets the card.  Immediately, the auction for the next card of that type starts and lasts for the next hour (or two or four). 

That way, you don't have control over who gets your card or how much it goes for -- but as a buyer, you do have control over what card you're getting and how much you bid for it.


Are there any abuses possible with this system?

If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Offline Glitch

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg103892#msg103892
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2010, 07:13:50 pm »
Well, to shoot into the top50, I'd put a stupid card like a skeleton up for bidding, and when the time came, I'd bid wayyy excessive amounts of electrum from an alt.  Then, using this electrum, my main could start grinding with relative ease, and have easy perfect records.

Offline Anothebrother

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg103893#msg103893
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2010, 07:13:58 pm »
orrrr

cards can be sold for a set range, IE discord can only be put up for a price of 300-500 and a skeleton 40-80 ext ext, the price range would go up and down like if 300 people buy discord for max price, it goes up by 10 or whatever.
If implemented like kills said with some sort of max/min i think this could work very well (just dont know how hard it'd be on the game mechanics)...Runescape has a really good system similar to this called the "Grand Exchange"

On the Grand Exchange each item has a min and max trading price (i'm not sure how this is calculated, must be some % lower and higher than the average trading price)...

Then when you go to the Grand Exchange you have 3 slots (might be more for paid members idk, i didnt pay).  In each slot you can buy or sell an item.  When you sell an item you can sell "X" amount of the item at "X" coins (within item price range) per item.  Similarly, when you buy you set it to buy "X" amount of an item and then you set your max price for that item and it will buy any items available in the market at the time at your max price or below (you always pay lowest possible price from available items)...

A few other points:
-No one sees what items are in the "exchange" (market) at the time, so you can just put an order in and wait for it to fill or cancel it
-when you put an item for sale or put in an order for an item, you must provide the item/money up front and then it goes into the exchange and you can only get it out if you cancel your order

this way, as opposed to having some set value would ensure that you wouldnt be selling pillars for like 1000 but would allow for ultra-rare cards (like nymphs and marks) to attain really high prices if they kept getting traded at max price...

Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg103917#msg103917
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2010, 08:13:07 pm »
On the Grand Exchange each item has a min and max trading price (i'm not sure how this is calculated, must be some % lower and higher than the average
if more poeple want the item than people who are selling the item, the price increase and turned around

Ashebrethafe

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg104201#msg104201
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2010, 01:48:31 am »
Well, to shoot into the top50, I'd put a stupid card like a skeleton up for bidding, and when the time came, I'd bid wayyy excessive amounts of electrum from an alt.  Then, using this electrum, my main could start grinding with relative ease, and have easy perfect records.
Two alts, if it was a proxy auction (the type used on eBay). Which means you'd need two accounts with excessive amounts of electrum. Would that still be easier than getting into the top50 without using such a trick?

If implemented like kills said with some sort of max/min i think this could work very well (just dont know how hard it'd be on the game mechanics)...Runescape has a really good system similar to this called the "Grand Exchange"

On the Grand Exchange each item has a min and max trading price (i'm not sure how this is calculated, must be some % lower and higher than the average trading price)...

Then when you go to the Grand Exchange you have 3 slots (might be more for paid members idk, i didnt pay).  In each slot you can buy or sell an item.  When you sell an item you can sell "X" amount of the item at "X" coins (within item price range) per item.  Similarly, when you buy you set it to buy "X" amount of an item and then you set your max price for that item and it will buy any items available in the market at the time at your max price or below (you always pay lowest possible price from available items)...

A few other points:
-No one sees what items are in the "exchange" (market) at the time, so you can just put an order in and wait for it to fill or cancel it
-when you put an item for sale or put in an order for an item, you must provide the item/money up front and then it goes into the exchange and you can only get it out if you cancel your order

this way, as opposed to having some set value would ensure that you wouldnt be selling pillars for like 1000 but would allow for ultra-rare cards (like nymphs and marks) to attain really high prices if they kept getting traded at max price...
Hmm... maybe we wouldn't need to give players direct control over prices. Instead, the bazaar could adjust cards' ranks, based on the proportion of buyers to sellers. (The proportion would be doubled for rares, since they'd otherwise max out at 50% buyers -- every copy sold by one player is bought by another -- rather than 100% buyers.) So if players were selling Purify, but nobody was buying it, then the bazaar would start buying Purify for 10 electrum and selling it for 15; if it still didn't sell, it would become as cheap as a skeleton. On the other hand, if nobody wanted to sell an Otyugh for 40 electrum, the bazaar would start offering 53 and charging 78; if that still wasn't enough, it would offer 68 and charge 100.

Offline teffy

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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg104213#msg104213
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2010, 02:22:24 am »
What´s the point of trading common cards between players ? Fixed prices have an advantage, compared to variable prices.



See, that the number of players which desires Purify becomes small, compared to the number of players, which get Purify in their spins. (If a constant, or slightly increasing number of new gamers enters the game.) -> decreasing prices.

If 2 different markets existed for Purify, the difference of the prices would get close to 0, because of arbitrage transactions.(-> Almost useless to have 2 markets)

If only a player market exists, the prices go to the allowed minimum- fast or slow. (->Noone has an advantage of this kind of market, people probably sell more cards, than buying them.)

In addition, the game would become unfair, if only a player market for common cards  existed, because you could get new common cards only this way and the price would be very high, when the card is introduced.

Conclusion: player market useless for common cards, we could discuss this for rares, but I´m against it.

P.S.

No complicated market mechanism please, this is not an economical game. Our trading system is simple and effective now and makes no problems, when new cards are introduced.
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Re: Player Bazar - buy cards from other players https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg106589#msg106589
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2010, 10:04:02 pm »
See, that the number of players which desires Purify becomes small, compared to the number of players, which get Purify in their spins. (If a constant, or slightly increasing number of new gamers enters the game.) -> decreasing prices.
But would this decrease the demand for Purify more than for other cards?
If 2 different markets existed for Purify, the difference of the prices would get close to 0, because of arbitrage transactions.(-> Almost useless to have 2 markets)
I'm not saying there should be 2 markets for Purify. I'm saying that if nobody wants to buy Purify, the bazaar we have now should charge less for it (and if nobody wants to sell a particular common card, the bazaar should charge more). Buy and sell prices would change together, so that buy price minus quantum cost remains 50% higher than sell price minus quantum cost (this is true of the current prices).
If only a player market exists, the prices go to the allowed minimum- fast or slow. (->Noone has an advantage of this kind of market, people probably sell more cards, than buying them.)

In addition, the game would become unfair, if only a player market for common cards  existed, because you could get new common cards only this way and the price would be very high, when the card is introduced.
I was never saying that only a player market should exist, and was trying to avoid a system that would cause such price wars (hence sellers being selected at random). There is no reason new commons would need to be expensive, under my last system -- they would quickly become prime candidates for a price increase, but they could start at a base price of zero (buy/sell price both equal to quantum cost) to compensate for this.
Conclusion: player market useless for common cards, we could discuss this for rares, but I´m against it.

P.S.

No complicated market mechanism please, this is not an economical game. Our trading system is simple and effective now and makes no problems, when new cards are introduced.
The power level of a card doesn't stay constant as new cards are introduced-- it increases with each new card that supports it, and decreases with each new card that counters it. Unchanging prices restrict the selection of new cards, which need to put each old card into the tier indicated by its price, or to keep it there.

For that matter, we don't really need the tiers at all -- and some of the complication of my mechanism was due to my trying to maintain them. The price changes could be minimal, and subtraction could replace division: the common card for which net purchases (purchases minus sales) was highest would cost 3 more electrum to buy and bring 2 more when sold; the common card for which it was lowest would cost 3 less and bring 2 less, unless its buy and sell prices were equal. (Or if you don't want to keep track of a variable with no maximum or minimum value, reset it to zero and raise the prices by 3 and 2 whenever it hits some value X, and reset it and lower the prices by 3 and 2 whenever it hits -X -- although that removes the limit on how fast a card's price can rise or fall.)

The same system could be used for the rares -- except that it would take fewer purchases to raise the price, since they can't have more purchases than sales.

 

anything
blarg: