Fixed prices sound better since they would prevent electrum transfers between accounts.you can always "flag" some cards as "unsellable", for example nymphs could be bound to the original account.
However even with fixed prices people could still open alt accounts (or hack) to get nymphs on the market, ruining their rarity.
I'm assuming that it will be a rare market? (Can the cards be upped?)If you sell back to the bazzar, you get less than what you paid for it. If you could sell to other players and buy from other players, you could sell for more than what you would get to bazzar and buy for less than what you would need to pay for bazzar.
Not many people would buy common cards.
If it were me, I'd have two accounts.Although I could see this happening, I doubt it would be especially efficient(because rares are SO hard to get in T50), unless you particularly wanted a certain rare weapon.
On one, I'd make an Ai3 farmer. The other would be brand new.
Logging on to both simultaneously, I'll sell my Ai3 farmer for cheap and by it with my new account.
Armed with an awesome deck, I'd get 500 score easily and a free rare.
I'd then sell this rare back to myself, rinse, wash, and repeat.
I've suggested this a couple of times before -- in 3 most important things (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1431.140.html) (reply 143) and Auction (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,7724.0.html) (reply 18).This system sounds great. It both thwarts electrum transfers and keeps rares just as rare as they were.
- Buying cards:
- the price for each card should be the average of the prices that sellers are asking for it
- the player-bazaar decides at random which seller to buy the card from (with money from its sales)
- I need to spend a "rare coin" to buy an ungrindable card
- Selling cards:
- I can't ask for less than the computer-bazaar would give me, or more than it would take
- I get a "rare coin" if I put an ungrindable card up for sale, which I need to give back in order to take that card down
- this is the only way to get "rare coins"
- Collecting money:
- the player-bazaar has decided to buy my card (to sell to another player)
- I go to bazaar and click "player bazaar"
- money gets transferred instantly to my account
The only part I'm not sure about is the "decides at random which seller to buy the card from". I'd weigh it so that the chance to buy from a particular person is negatively correlated to their asking price. Sellers would get their requested amounts and buyers would always pay the average price, while the bazaar itself would neither earn or lose electrum on average. I'd also put a soft cap on the amount of electrum requested for a card, making it so that the bazaar never takes the card from a person asking more than three times the average asking price. A hard cap might also be required to prevent people from artificially inflating card prices with alt accounts (or maybe the average calculation could ignore the extreme values on the high end.)Weights could be factored into the random decision -- the winner of a raffle is still random, even if some people bought more tickets than others. (In this case, buying more tickets = asking a cheaper price.)
orrrrIf implemented like kills said with some sort of max/min i think this could work very well (just dont know how hard it'd be on the game mechanics)...Runescape has a really good system similar to this called the "Grand Exchange"
cards can be sold for a set range, IE discord can only be put up for a price of 300-500 and a skeleton 40-80 ext ext, the price range would go up and down like if 300 people buy discord for max price, it goes up by 10 or whatever.
Well, to shoot into the top50, I'd put a stupid card like a skeleton up for bidding, and when the time came, I'd bid wayyy excessive amounts of electrum from an alt. Then, using this electrum, my main could start grinding with relative ease, and have easy perfect records.Two alts, if it was a proxy auction (the type used on eBay). Which means you'd need two accounts with excessive amounts of electrum. Would that still be easier than getting into the top50 without using such a trick?
If implemented like kills said with some sort of max/min i think this could work very well (just dont know how hard it'd be on the game mechanics)...Runescape has a really good system similar to this called the "Grand Exchange"Hmm... maybe we wouldn't need to give players direct control over prices. Instead, the bazaar could adjust cards' ranks, based on the proportion of buyers to sellers. (The proportion would be doubled for rares, since they'd otherwise max out at 50% buyers -- every copy sold by one player is bought by another -- rather than 100% buyers.) So if players were selling Purify, but nobody was buying it, then the bazaar would start buying Purify for 10 electrum and selling it for 15; if it still didn't sell, it would become as cheap as a skeleton. On the other hand, if nobody wanted to sell an Otyugh for 40 electrum, the bazaar would start offering 53 and charging 78; if that still wasn't enough, it would offer 68 and charge 100.
On the Grand Exchange each item has a min and max trading price (i'm not sure how this is calculated, must be some % lower and higher than the average trading price)...
Then when you go to the Grand Exchange you have 3 slots (might be more for paid members idk, i didnt pay). In each slot you can buy or sell an item. When you sell an item you can sell "X" amount of the item at "X" coins (within item price range) per item. Similarly, when you buy you set it to buy "X" amount of an item and then you set your max price for that item and it will buy any items available in the market at the time at your max price or below (you always pay lowest possible price from available items)...
A few other points:
-No one sees what items are in the "exchange" (market) at the time, so you can just put an order in and wait for it to fill or cancel it
-when you put an item for sale or put in an order for an item, you must provide the item/money up front and then it goes into the exchange and you can only get it out if you cancel your order
this way, as opposed to having some set value would ensure that you wouldnt be selling pillars for like 1000 but would allow for ultra-rare cards (like nymphs and marks) to attain really high prices if they kept getting traded at max price...
See, that the number of players which desires Purify becomes small, compared to the number of players, which get Purify in their spins. (If a constant, or slightly increasing number of new gamers enters the game.) -> decreasing prices.But would this decrease the demand for Purify more than for other cards?
If 2 different markets existed for Purify, the difference of the prices would get close to 0, because of arbitrage transactions.(-> Almost useless to have 2 markets)I'm not saying there should be 2 markets for Purify. I'm saying that if nobody wants to buy Purify, the bazaar we have now should charge less for it (and if nobody wants to sell a particular common card, the bazaar should charge more). Buy and sell prices would change together, so that buy price minus quantum cost remains 50% higher than sell price minus quantum cost (this is true of the current prices).
If only a player market exists, the prices go to the allowed minimum- fast or slow. (->Noone has an advantage of this kind of market, people probably sell more cards, than buying them.)I was never saying that only a player market should exist, and was trying to avoid a system that would cause such price wars (hence sellers being selected at random). There is no reason new commons would need to be expensive, under my last system -- they would quickly become prime candidates for a price increase, but they could start at a base price of zero (buy/sell price both equal to quantum cost) to compensate for this.
In addition, the game would become unfair, if only a player market for common cards existed, because you could get new common cards only this way and the price would be very high, when the card is introduced.
Conclusion: player market useless for common cards, we could discuss this for rares, but I´m against it.The power level of a card doesn't stay constant as new cards are introduced-- it increases with each new card that supports it, and decreases with each new card that counters it. Unchanging prices restrict the selection of new cards, which need to put each old card into the tier indicated by its price, or to keep it there.
P.S.
No complicated market mechanism please, this is not an economical game. Our trading system is simple and effective now and makes no problems, when new cards are introduced.
Well, to shoot into the top50, I'd put a stupid card like a skeleton up for bidding, and when the time came, I'd bid wayyy excessive amounts of electrum from an alt. Then, using this electrum, my main could start grinding with relative ease, and have easy perfect records.
Maybe -- I posted a link to my suggestion. If she is teasing us, im not :)zanz doesnt read suggestions...and you have no pull... so, that's why i'm asking SG, not you ;)
with once per day limit i like this idea. without it just means to people with 6 of a rare trade farm forevor to produce all of the rares.Thats what I was thinking too. Once a day would be good though, I think. I like Silver's idea of having it be like making an offering or sacrifice to the Oracle.
It seems to be a good idea; one exchange per day is okay.
Did you suggest that in an exchange a random rare card was won but, with a 100% winning rate? Because, noone would appreciate an opportunity where one loses 6 rares for a chance of winning, I suppose.
Should the possible rares include Nymphs and Marks too (with a really low chance of course)? - If not, perhaps there should be a chance for winning an upgraded rare (even if you exchanged unupgraded cards). Alternatively, only exchanging upgraded rares give you a chance for Nymphs and Marks? Other opinions about this?
Yes, obviously it should be a guaranteed win rate for a new rare.It seems to be a good idea; one exchange per day is okay.
Did you suggest that in an exchange a random rare card was won but, with a 100% winning rate? Because, noone would appreciate an opportunity where one loses 6 rares for a chance of winning, I suppose.
Should the possible rares include Nymphs and Marks too (with a really low chance of course)? - If not, perhaps there should be a chance for winning an upgraded rare (even if you exchanged unupgraded cards). Alternatively, only exchanging upgraded rares give you a chance for Nymphs and Marks? Other opinions about this?
No one wants to lose 6 rares for only 800 electrum either :/
About nymphs/marks, ultra-rares should stay ultra-rare.
What about starting off with one of each weapon in a pool, and a player trades two rares into the pool in order to get one random rare out? For example, if you had a 13th Pharaoh and 13th Druidic Staff, you could drop those in and randomly pull out a Discord. Later another player might drop in an Owl's Eye and Miracle, and pull out the Pharaoh.This is actually a nice way to subvert the exploit of alt accounting, assuming enough people drop rares in. I like it. :)
I don't think people who got 12 of one rare card really are gonna do this and have a big chance to get another card they allready have
I just sell anything i got more than 6 of
You know, I think it would be more fun to just be able to get them from oracle onlyI don't think people who got 12 of one rare card really are gonna do this and have a big chance to get another card they allready have
I just sell anything i got more than 6 of
That's why I suggest putting nymphs on the spin. Bad odds, but the chance still there. Maybe only once a week as well?
no. i want this idea to happen, and it has to not include nymphs.Very few players would even drop nymphs into in the pool in the first place, given how hard it is to get 6> copies of any Nymph.
When thinking of this concept I tried to make it so that it can't really be abused.
Trading multiple cards: One person can just spin a bunch of free cards from oracle on alts, then trade all of those cards for a single random pillar.
Type in :electrum: Good idea, worried about this being abused, but I can't really think how it can be abused too badly, sort of like This (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,42454.0.html)
It'd be nice if both concepts can be implemented without much abuse though.
But I've already worked so hard for all my upped cards :'(
lol yeah well. I shouldn't have sold all my spare supernovas :P
I feel that if rares were ever tradable, it could still be abused a lot because it's not very hard to give the rares to someone else so that they have a set of 6, then let that person farm for even more of the rares. Same with shards.
It's better than just straight up letting them farm rares off of you though. I know what you're saying, but I feel that a trade (+1,-1) is still better than farming (+1,-0)
I might like the idea of trading upped non-rares for other upped non-rares.What I intended for it to be
And no buying cards from others for electrum. It has to be 1 upped card for another.
buying cards for electrum would just fill up the chats will spammers trying to get a good deal.
Chat crowding is definitely something to consider.
Having a lobby or open chat (whether it be a seperate room in EtG forums chat or one of those kong chats) would make more excitement. I personally think it'd add to the fun and encourage more players if there were auctions for cards or things.
Chat crowding is definitely something to consider.Having a lobby or open chat (whether it be a seperate room in EtG forums chat or one of those kong chats) would make more excitement. I personally think it'd add to the fun and encourage more players if there were auctions for cards or things.
I'd love to be able to trade, but I've never been able to come up with a way to trade that I couldn't abuse, so I've never suggested a method. Your way is hard (but not impossible) to abuse, although that is in large part because you've limited most of the things people want to trade for. I mean, I'd love to be able to trade a player starting out a dozen or two upped cards and 10k electrum to get them started for that nymph they just spun, but if that's possible, then so is creating 1000 alts and trading all the nymphs to your main account.
What you stated above is great, and if possible, I'd love to see it happen as well. Problem is, like you said, too easily abused
Of course, that's not at all what you've suggested; your trades are 1:1 and exclude the more difficult to obtain cards. The most abusive thing you can do with your method is to trade upped cards you have extra of and would normally sell for ~1100 electrum to get ones you would need to spend 1500 electrum to upgrade. Unfortunately, that's also the only thing you can really do with it.
Yeah, to try and mitigate abuses, I had to stick with something like that. Is it much? Not really, merely around a 400 electrum profit, but it's more of the feeling of "MMO" that it gives because it allows for more actions between players
I think your system would work a lot better if we had more rarities of cards besides 'bazaar buyable', 'rare', and 'nymph/mark', especially rarities that took considerable skill to obtain, rather than 'oh look, the fat man was nice to me today'. For instance, with that trials project Zanz had been talking about, if you won certain cards obtainable only in that manner, a skilled player could obtain those and trade them away to others who are either too lazy to get them, too unskilled to earn them, or weren't able to get the ones they wanted. (the equivalent of winning 10 morning glories and all the other rares in the reels but no titans when you really want to play gravity, for instance)
Of course. There's really not much point in trading when there are only "You can buy this" "You can't buy this" "You are super lucky" as rarity levels. Perhaps with a bigger card base, more rarity levels, booster packs, or unique cards the system would be much better.
Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Was I really that bad at getting my point across? :(Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
That's actually a pretty good idea. Only slight problem I see with it is that not all nymphs are created equal and some are better than others (You'd much rather 6 nymphs of one element rather than 6 scattered nymphs), but I think it can solve the problem quite nicely.Was I really that bad at getting my point across? :(Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
I meant being able to trade a nymph for a nymph, a rare weapon for a rare weapon...
That's actually a pretty good idea. Only slight problem I see with it is that not all nymphs are created equal and some are better than others (You'd much rather 6 nymphs of one element rather than 6 scattered nymphs), but I think it can solve the problem quite nicely.Was I really that bad at getting my point across? :(Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
I meant being able to trade a nymph for a nymph, a rare weapon for a rare weapon...
Trading keeps being suggested and keeps being proved subpar or counter to the game philosophy.
What is the game's philosophy exactly? In a CCG, shouldn't playing with others be one half of the game and collecting/trading be the other half?
It cannot render rares common.
Make it so that only rares can be traded for rares. Still the same number of rares in circulation.
It cannot generate infinite :electrum.
I cannot really see a way to generate infinite electrum if it is just the 1 card <-> 1 card model.
The bazaar is superior to the remains.
The bazaar cannot produce rares/upgraded cards. If someone upped a card they regret, they can only keep it or sell it for a -500 :electrum penalty. By trading it for another upped card they want, it helps mitigate that loss.
The philosophy comment was in reference to the making rares common. (PS: trading is part of TCGs not inherently part of CCGs)Trading keeps being suggested and keeps being proved subpar or counter to the game philosophy.
What is the game's philosophy exactly? In a CCG, shouldn't playing with others be one half of the game and collecting/trading be the other half?
It cannot render rares common.
Make it so that only rares can be traded for rares. Still the same number of rares in circulation.
It cannot generate infinite :electrum.
I cannot really see a way to generate infinite electrum if it is just the 1 card <-> 1 card model.
The bazaar is superior to the remains.
The bazaar cannot produce rares/upgraded cards. If someone upped a card they regret, they can only keep it or sell it for a -500 :electrum penalty. By trading it for another upped card they want, it helps mitigate that loss.
That's actually a pretty good idea. Only slight problem I see with it is that not all nymphs are created equal and some are better than others (You'd much rather 6 nymphs of one element rather than 6 scattered nymphs), but I think it can solve the problem quite nicely.Was I really that bad at getting my point across? :(Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.
Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
I meant being able to trade a nymph for a nymph, a rare weapon for a rare weapon...
[...] My goal is to have people actually creating their very own deck instead of everyone playing with the very same deck. That means that there is a price to pay: the chance that you will never get to have a specific card -ever- because it simply is too rare.[...]
| Full set of 6 unupped weapons: | Now: average 126 tries Variance: 746 | Trading 72 tries 43% less |
| Full set of 6 unupped non-shards | Now: average 164 tries Variance: 890 | Trading 90 tries 45% less. |
| Full set of 6 unupped rares | Now: 321 Variance: 2944 | Trading: 162 49,5% less. |
| Full set of 12 rares | Now: 528 tries Variance: 4901 | Trading: 324 38,6% less |
| 12 nymphs | Now: 37 tries (or 37 oracle spins to win them all). Variance: 206 | Trading: 12 67,6% less |
From my understanding of the game: There shall be decks which player X will NEVER build and the nymphs you own shall make your account unique, and the decks you can create. Then it´s harder to copy-paste decks.The best way to keep a very rare card very rare is to make it so players have a very small chance to see it. If a card is extremely rare, then it will be very hard to find another player that has one, just as it is very hard to find one to begin with. Moreover, to get ahold of said card, you would need to offer something of equal value in exchange... another "very rare" card.[...] My goal is to have people actually creating their very own deck instead of everyone playing with the very same deck. That means that there is a price to pay: the chance that you will never get to have a specific card -ever- because it simply is too rare.[...]
A question I still have is : "Why should we have trading? What would be the benefits for the community ?"If trading were put in place, the probability for winning shards in arenas could be brought down and they could be set to relics for pvp matches. This would help make them become "rare" once again and would also be another solution to the farm deck problem. It would cut out using farm decks for shards but would do it in a manner that would not leave players screaming about not being able to get to try out cool cards.