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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Trading? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg535568#msg535568
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2012, 02:42:40 am »
Trading keeps being suggested and keeps being proved subpar or counter to the game philosophy.
What is the game's philosophy exactly? In a CCG, shouldn't playing with others be one half of the game and collecting/trading be the other half?

It cannot render rares common.
Make it so that only rares can be traded for rares. Still the same number of rares in circulation.
It cannot generate infinite  :electrum.
I cannot really see a way to generate infinite electrum if it is just the 1 card <-> 1 card model.
The bazaar is superior to the remains.
The bazaar cannot produce rares/upgraded cards. If someone upped a card they regret, they can only keep it or sell it for a -500 :electrum penalty. By trading it for another upped card they want, it helps mitigate that loss.
The philosophy comment was in reference to the making rares common. (PS: trading is part of TCGs not inherently part of CCGs)
The infinite  :electrum was not in reference to this specific example but rather for completeness.
There needs to be a point to have more than 1 deck's worth of upgrades. Trading upgraded cards would subvert this.

Trading rares for rares might be beneficial but would not need two person trading. (You could add trading rares with the bazaar)
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Offline blahs15

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Re: Trading? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg535571#msg535571
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2012, 03:07:31 am »
Suggestion to improve your idea: being able to trade a nymph for an other, the same goes for weapons and mark cards.

Create alts, gets nymphs, trade it with your main account for some pillar.
Was I really that bad at getting my point across? :(

I meant being able to trade a nymph for a nymph, a rare weapon for a rare weapon...
That's actually a pretty good idea. Only slight problem I see with it is that not all nymphs are created equal and some are better than others (You'd much rather 6 nymphs of one element rather than 6 scattered nymphs), but I think it can solve the problem quite nicely.

Another problem with this is that since I already have 18 nymphs, I could still make tons and tons of alts to get the nymphs I want.  Then when I want to switch to another nymph, I just track down the accounts with that nymph, and switch it again temporarily.  It may take time, and a lot of account tracking and oracle getting.  But for people who have everything else already... It's probably worth it.
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Trading? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg535674#msg535674
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2012, 05:39:50 pm »
I really like the idea of adding in :electrum , but there needs to some limit / regulation / safeguard to prevent abuse.

The problem with putting in electrum trading (particularly if no upped card to card is required as well) is that people can abuse it to sell electrum for real money. That can open up a really big Can 'O Worms.
(see comment I made in http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,42454.0.html ). 

As for trading upped cards for upped cards. That shouldn't be a problem.

What would be interesting, is to allow it to extend to shards and nymphs, but only allow them to be traded for other shards / nymphs.
E.g. shard for shard and nymph for nymph.

Along the same vein, this should probably extend to all rares. I.e. a rare card can only be traded for another rare card of the same "rarity"
-Levels:
0) Commons - buyable in Bazar
1) Grindables - Weapons, Miracle, Pharaoh, etc. (can be won off of elders and HB)
2a) Nymphs
2b) Shards
3) Foils (if any more get put in)

Trading of rares could even be extended to non-upped... not sure if thats good idea or not though.

That way, rare cards could be traded, but would stay rare (in terms of number in circulation)
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Offline teffy

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Re: Trading? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg535717#msg535717
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2012, 08:40:43 pm »
I see suggestions, how trading could work and reasons why trading seems to be bad. I also don´t like trading in Elements.
 A question I still have is : "Why should we have trading? What would be the benefits for the community ?"

I try to guess:

Nymphs: When you are allowed to trade nymphs, you need to own less nymphs to be able to build all decks with nymphs. With "perfect trading", you would need the maximum of nymphs needed in a deck, which is probably around 6 (although I built some with more) .

From my understanding of the game: There shall be decks which player X will NEVER build and the nymphs you own shall make your account unique, and the decks you can create. Then it´s harder to copy-paste decks.

[...] My goal is to have people actually creating their very own deck instead of everyone playing with the very same deck. That means that there is a price to pay: the chance that you will never get to have a specific card -ever- because it simply is too rare.[...]


Similar for rares : Why own them, when rares are handed around ? Ideally, you need around 9 rares (guessed number) to build all decks.
 You also get a full collection of rares much easier (around 40% faster from arena special spins) . Some numbers:
Spoiler for number examples from program tests, assuming equal distribution of rares:

1.000.000 tests each.
Full set of 6 unupped weapons:Now:
average 126 tries
Variance: 746
Trading
72 tries
43% less
Full set of 6 unupped non-shardsNow:
average 164 tries
Variance: 890
Trading
90 tries
45% less.
Full set of 6 unupped raresNow:
321
Variance: 2944
Trading:
162
49,5% less.
Full set of 12 raresNow:
528 tries
Variance: 4901
Trading:
324
38,6% less
12 nymphsNow:
37 tries (or 37 oracle spins to win them all).
Variance: 206
Trading:
12
67,6% less



Trading Upgrades: Well, you also need less upgrades to be able to build decks. My opinion is, that you should think about your upgrades and not be able to change them without penalty.
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Offline OdinVanguard

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Re: Trading? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=8143.msg536012#msg536012
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2012, 11:01:33 pm »
Teffy has some good points,
1)there is a good reason to ensure that each account can be "unique". E.g. by what ultra rares it manages to acrue.
-Note though, that trading would not necessarily negate this. If a particular card is sufficiently rare, it will take much more work to find others who have the one you are looking for. In fact, trading would help keep rare cards rare since it would alleviate some of the need for farm decks.
Also, since a player is "trading" they get a new card, but they also loose one in the process. So if, for instance, nymphs can only trade for other nymphs, accounts should stay relatively unique. The number of nymphs they own would not change.
Lastly, this would promote more player to player interaction, since in order to trade for a card you need, you have to find someone that has one. More social interaction would be good in my opinion.

From my understanding of the game: There shall be decks which player X will NEVER build and the nymphs you own shall make your account unique, and the decks you can create. Then it´s harder to copy-paste decks.

[...] My goal is to have people actually creating their very own deck instead of everyone playing with the very same deck. That means that there is a price to pay: the chance that you will never get to have a specific card -ever- because it simply is too rare.[...]
The best way to keep a very rare card very rare is to make it so players have a very small chance to see it. If a card is extremely rare, then it will be very hard to find another player that has one, just as it is very hard to find one to begin with. Moreover, to get ahold of said card, you would need to offer something of equal value in exchange... another "very rare" card.


2)A player should not be able to change upgraded cards without penalty.
-I agree with this... I think a solution here would be to have a "trade tax" on upgraded cards (maybe a few hundred :electrum ). For that matter, a smaller tax could be put on unupped rares if those can be traded as well. This would help with point number 1 as well.

3) Last but not least
A question I still have is : "Why should we have trading? What would be the benefits for the community ?"
If trading were put in place, the probability for winning shards in arenas could be brought down and they could be set to relics for pvp matches. This would help make them become "rare" once again and would also be another solution to the farm deck problem. It would cut out using farm decks for shards but would do it in a manner that would not leave players screaming about not being able to get to try out cool cards.
If implemented well, the goal of trading would be to help players get a few cards they need to make a really awesome deck, in exchange for a few they have that just don't fit. Trading would allow a player to flesh out a deck strategy. As long as the frequency of rare cards in the total card pool is fairly even, this should avoid the problems of every player making one or two highly popular decks since the cards to compose them would also be in high demand, and thus difficult to trade for.
Lastly, trading rewards players for interacting with other players. It would give players a reason to join pvp and actually TALK to the other player and not just leave when they realize they haven't found a farm deck... and who knows, maybe those of us who click pvp to play against a human opponent will get to do so.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 04:03:54 pm by OdinVanguard »
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