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Kael Hate

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg52291#msg52291
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2010, 06:12:05 pm »
Wait..... you EDITED your post to put words in my mouth!? Your elitism really grinds my gears, sir. Not once have I ever said that American English is "better" than standard English. But because there is an American flag on my avatar, you assumed that I did. Well done. I have actually been to Australia, thank you very much, and guess what? People don't care about which is correct! They happen to use 'ou' because that is the spelling of the land. But, as I said earlier, it doesn't matter. They are the same words, but with different spelling. Every adult who can read English at some level understands that there are different dialects of language, both in speaking and in writing.
Actually I edited to state the reason for my objection and that regardless of my objection would be happy if the forum used American spelling. American culture changed the spelling so that their children could supposedly gain a grasp on language faster. I doubt you were around when that went through.

You also had said:
I prefer Armory, as that is the standard spelling used by most fantasy games.
When it isn't the standard spelling used by most fantasy games, unless you have a bias to those coming out of America.

In Australia written words in American English are commonly understood since there is a lot of literature that comes from America. Regardless of that, using the American spelling for words will have you fail at School English.

In regards to Elitism. Do you believe that the Lazy should be given the same rights as Hardworking? Do you believe the less inteligent should have the same opportunities as the more inteligent? Seems odd when Society taxes the Rich more than the poor, scholarships are only given to the select few that excel and selected leaders are given the reward and the power to have us killed. I believe everyone should strive for perfection and if they don't, whats the point of living?

Karma spite me again if it makes you feel good.


Scaredgirl

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg52295#msg52295
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2010, 06:26:51 pm »
Karma spite me again if it makes you feel good.
I'm not going to Karma spite you, but I am going to tell you that this is not an anti-US spelling thread, and that continuing to stir up drama (again) will have consequences. 

I personally like Armory, and I've already started a subsection with that name. It's more simple and if Blizzard uses it, it works for us too. Also huge majority of our forum users are from US.

Besides.. who cares?

P.s. that was a rhetorical question and any further discussion about spelling or Americanism will probably take me over the edge. Take it to off-topic section if you feel the need to discuss about it.

Kael Hate

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg52297#msg52297
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2010, 06:29:06 pm »
Karma spite me again if it makes you feel good.
I'm not going to Karma spite you, but I am going to tell you that this is not an anti-US spelling thread, and that continuing to stir up drama (again) will have consequences. 

I personally like Armory, and I've already started a subsection with that name. It's more simple and if Blizzard uses it, it works for us too. Also huge majority of our forum users are from US.

Besides.. who cares?

P.s. that was a rhetorical question and any further discussion about spelling or Americanism will probably take me over the edge. Take it to off-topic section if you feel the need to discuss about it.
I'm cool with that.

hyoniin

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54552#msg54552
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2010, 02:14:01 am »
I hardly think that crucible is a difficuly word.  Aside from its use in the literary world which does tend to extend beyond its native country, anyone who has any experience within the field of science knows what a crucible is.  Aside from the point as to whether crucible is a difficult or strange word or not one must consider the fact that words are used not to be difficult or to be easy but instead to provide a meaning within the context of a sentence or paragraph.  When looking at language in this light one can see that after considering the denotation, connotation, and colloquialisms associated with each word as well as the context within which it is used there are no such things as synonyms.  Each word carries with it its own unique meaning and as such no other word is appropriate for what the speaker or writer means with the word they chose.  Perhaps, they meant something else and used an incorrect word or perhaps after reviewing their concept they realize that their initial thought on the meaning of their phrase has changed either way a word is a word and as such is neither difficult nor easy.  Just because a word is not used frequently within an area of the world or a country does not mean that one must stray from its use it just means that the person intending to use the word has to be sure that it is indeed the exact choice that they wish to use.  I personally think that any time we choose to intentionally switch our diction for the mere sake of giving in to the laziness or ignorance of the masses then we lose a lot more than the true meaning of our phrase. 

In the end does it mean much in this case??  Probably not, since the selected names were probably based off of an arbitrary selection of words carrying a similar meaning.  Now if in turn the level order is in fact based off of some coordinating characteristics of the terms, perhaps something such as the standard size of the material object defined by each word or the varying degrees of complexity with which each chosen word is used in their real life exemplifications, then there might be an argument to necessitate keeping the list as provided by the original poster.  Otherwise, if the selection is arbitrary smith, forge, crucible, et cetera makes little difference.

Back on to the subject of the changes to the card ideas section: I understand your concern kael hate but I really don't think that you have as much to worry about as you think that you do.  Here is the way I see it... The majority of players that you have expressed your concern about likely are not going to be putting forth the effort to register to the forums and post into the ideas or vote on them.  Secondly, the experienced players who understand the game mechanics more or less have a responsibility as concerned players in this game to expound their understanding on the mechanics in question with new card ideas to those who do not yet understand them.  By taking up the responsibility as an experienced player in the community and assisting those who are still naive then you can successfully generate more individuals that are educated concerning the game's mechanics.  However, if you simply provide privileges to a select few based off of some nondescript number then you push potential gamers away.  I have seen many small free online games quickly drop out of existence because too much emphasis was based on the opinion of those who had been around the longest or those that the developers were friends with.  It is imperative in an online gaming situation that all members feel an equality or at least a potential for equality.  By excluding members from being able to vote on new ideas introduced into the card  selections you will likely destroy that feeling of equality. 

Don't get me wrong there are appropriate measures with which one can set up a system such as you are advocating but it has nothing to do with a player's experience within the game or reputation on the forums.  If a set selection of individuals are to be placed into such a position of power as you have suggested then it must be done based on unbiased expertise.  You can not reliably select candidates for inclusion within that group based off of experience because time and amount of play within the game does not guarantee that you are the most qualified for deciding issues that affect the entire community of that game.  Now if a card development team were to be created that had been proven to be unbiased, rational, and educated about the game and its mechanics that was responsible for creating new card ideas, monitoring new card proposals, and testing their effects on the game then I could support that.  However, if someone had joined a week ago or someone had been playing for years it wouldn't matter as long as they could show their proficiency in the tasks required of them.  Meanwhile, this would serve to eliminate new card ideas that would be detrimental to the game while still providing all members to vote on new card ideas that passed the inspections of the card development team. 

I think that the tiered level system provided previously could set up a good foundation for such a system to be implemented as long as zanz is willing to put forth the effort and time necessary to ensure that a good team is set in place for the card development team. 

If a team can't be chosen off of objective qualifications that actually have something to do with their ability to provide appropriate card suggestions then it still falls back to a system such as is currently offered by the changes to the card ideas section where all members in the game's community have the ability to vote on new card proposals, and it falls on the explanations, reason, and logic of the knowledgeable community to ensure that those who are uneducated about certain game mechanics are given the appropriate information to be able to make a proper decision regarding new card ideas being proposed.

Kurohami

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54559#msg54559
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2010, 03:03:32 am »
I pass my english courses quite fine in my country which has english as the official language, but I don't know the world crucible. However, as bloodshadow put it, dictionaries are so readily available, so why don't we use it? And although annoying sometimes, those rare words tends to give things a mystical flavor.

acelink

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54610#msg54610
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2010, 05:32:31 am »
WALL OF TEXT
Good read and it wasn't just a wall of text.  I like your message and you explained your points well.
+1 karma for taking the time and posting a detailed post.

Back on topic.  I like the advancements in your idea SG.  It takes the card idea section to a new level.

Offline Jangoo

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54671#msg54671
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2010, 10:38:34 am »

Jeeez, this is a looooong thread on a very interesting subject with a very confusing mix of very different aspects that supposingly have something to do with the original subject of the thread, oftentimes have not at all though ... way to complicated for this section of the forum that is supposedly not about lenghty posts, philosophical discussions and somewhat personal criticism.
Sorry I can't really manage to plow through all this at the time being.

Honestly, I have never read through more than a couple of those "card-ideas" that have been posted over the last months ... it's just too tedious and depressing.
I do however have some questions that struck me while overreading this (sorry if those got dealt with a long time ago but as I said: looong thread, more or less unknown subject to me):

1. Whatever happened to Zanzarino as the original game-designer of Elements?

Are we talking about card-ideas that will certainly be implemented? Card ideas that might be implemented? Or simply about the communal process of deciding on card ideas which will then be presented to Zanzarino who may or may not decide on implementing them?
While the answer is probably the last option, I still find a little confusing that this thread appears as if the community should actually have a real say in which cards come out next and which not ... especially after reading all this fuzz about elitist communities, the "dumb" and the "intelligent"  (fuzz I actually care about a lot) ... I would personally really rather entrust this game to THE ONE who allegedly has a ton of card-ideas in the closet either way and who has proven to know what he is doing.
The way I interpret this thread, the community as such can simply just fail by being elitist, not elitist, making some unhappy and others happy ... whatever. This is BY FAR not a matter of card-ideas and game-dynamics anymore but just another societal problem that revolves around the concept of popularity: Everybody wants HIS card to be in the game, so everybody spams as many "creative" ideas as possible.

2. Why is Elements forced to evolve so fast?


Reading this thread (and quite a few others) could lead one to the conclusion that Elements actually needs as many additions as soon as possible. Why would that be?
Elements has been a very cool game 10 months ago, at the end of 2009 and it is now ... so what's the hurry people? Afraid people or even you yourself could loose interest if another "brandnew and totally amazing" card isn't released next month? Well think again, about how long this is supposed to go on and how long Zanz and everybody else is supposed to get all worked up about things like this.
While "support" and "updating" is certainly the hallmark of any good online product nowadays, some things best remain unchanged or at least be given the chance to evolve slowly over a certain time.
This time may actually seem a bit too long for the common contemporary-online-kiddie ... well, chess has been around for over a thousand years and it is still a good game even though it didn't change a single bit.
Is Elements really doomed to be another "fast-food"-game that bows to the seemingly superior logic of the market those days? ... Well then, you might as well take your leave now because in merely half a year there will be something better and newer with even MORE brandnew and totally amazing features on the market.

3. Why (oh why!!!) are "card-ideas" mixed up with "card-art"?

As a person who has analyzed and designed games for a loooong time but doesn't really excel in artisan disciplines, I can only say:
These are two totally different things!
If you are concerned about who is going to decide on which card is good or not, first realize that those who know about gaming should care about the card as such, those who know about graphic design should care about its looks.
This confusion of two different things intertwines all too well with your whole discussion about the "societal aspects" (to put it lightly) of card-design: What kind of chances does a decent card by a poor graphic designer stand? What kind of chances does a very nice looking card by a poor game-designer stand? Which role does the popularity/elite-status of the designer and those who decide on his card play?

Damn people, leave it to the pro and HIS, not YOUR, chosen ones and quit all that "who dances best around the fire" - childplay.


Scaredgirl

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54676#msg54676
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2010, 11:04:09 am »
1. Whatever happened to Zanzarino as the original game-designer of Elements?
I have said repeatedly that submitting ideas is no guarantee that the idea actually makes into the game. In fact it's very unlikely that they do. But that's not what "Card Ideas" section is all about. This is mainly for the entertainment of creative people, and maybe to give some ideas to Zanz. It's very productive behavior, and it boggles my mind that someone would actually be against it.

"Stop trying to be creative and helping the developers! We should all just sit quietly in a dark room and play!".


Quote

2. Why is Elements forced to evolve so fast?

Nobody is forcing Elements to evolve. These are just ideas to help further develop the game. Nothing more.

That chess example was pretty funny. You claim you have been "designing games for a long time" but don't seem to understand huge differences between chess and CCG's.

Chess is a polished, finished product with a fixed rule set. CCG's on the other hand are based on new cards appearing every now and then. They are totally different. Or have you seen any new pieces introduced to chess lately? If you think Elements would survive years without any new cards, you might want to reconsider that career as a game designer. :)


Quote
3. Why (oh why!!!) are "card-ideas" mixed up with "card-art"?
Because we are trying to offer a "finished product" to make it easier for developers. Also having both the idea and the image makes it more interesting for anyone visiting "Card Ideas" section. Art is cool but it's only art. Ideas on paper are a bit boring. When you combine the two, the idea gets a "soul".

You can still post art and ideas individually, but if you want your idea to reach the higher ladders, you need to have a complete package.

Offline Jangoo

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54699#msg54699
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2010, 01:06:12 pm »
You putting it that way, it all makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up SG.

1. -> So this thread is about the best "mode" how to finally get to the point of presenting Zanz awesome ideas in the best possible way then? I was just a little concerned that people would take it too seriously if it really is nothing more than some creative pass-time, that's all.
After all, that thread does seem a little ... "overheated" and going far faaar beyond pass-time fun, but I suppose that is just my impression then. Sorry for having been the party-pooper.  8)

2. -> The very nature of any game is comparable to another. Comparisons can be made on a vast number of levels depending on what exactly you look at ... for the example at hand, both games feature two opposing players, a playing field, solely intellectual activity and a set of pieces known by both players. The major differences will above all probably be the element of luck in a CCG and the option to change out your pieces within the known master-set. However, chess is by far not as far away from Elements than say ... betting on racecars, playing dice or shooting bottles with a bb-gun, all of which are games.
That CCG "depend on" new cards appearing is a typical neoliberal market-logic which does not necessarily have to be true. I have a tons of friends who actually quit MtG because of constant new editions. The company doesn't seem to have crumbled because of that but for some true gamers I know the game certainly hasn't gotten any better and they certainly dont play it anymore. I would even say MtGs best days are way over.
My job is not being a game-designer ... it doesn't pay all that well.

3. -> Couldn't someone design a card-concept, then ask vrt to make some awesome art for it?
I guess this is already happening anyways ... as I said: new to the topic.


Offline Glitch

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54774#msg54774
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2010, 03:04:53 pm »
Might I ask when the first smithy cards are going to be added?

Scaredgirl

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54792#msg54792
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2010, 04:19:39 pm »
You putting it that way, it all makes a lot more sense. Thanks for clearing that up SG.

1. -> So this thread is about the best "mode" how to finally get to the point of presenting Zanz awesome ideas in the best possible way then? I was just a little concerned that people would take it too seriously if it really is nothing more than some creative pass-time, that's all.
After all, that thread does seem a little ... "overheated" and going far faaar beyond pass-time fun, but I suppose that is just my impression then. Sorry for having been the party-pooper.  8)

2. -> The very nature of any game is comparable to another. Comparisons can be made on a vast number of levels depending on what exactly you look at ... for the example at hand, both games feature two opposing players, a playing field, solely intellectual activity and a set of pieces known by both players. The major differences will above all probably be the element of luck in a CCG and the option to change out your pieces within the known master-set. However, chess is by far not as far away from Elements than say ... betting on racecars, playing dice or shooting bottles with a bb-gun, all of which are games.
That CCG "depend on" new cards appearing is a typical neoliberal market-logic which does not necessarily have to be true. I have a tons of friends who actually quit MtG because of constant new editions. The company doesn't seem to have crumbled because of that but for some true gamers I know the game certainly hasn't gotten any better and they certainly dont play it anymore. I would even say MtGs best days are way over.
My job is not being a game-designer ... it doesn't pay all that well.

3. -> Couldn't someone design a card-concept, then ask vrt to make some awesome art for it?
I guess this is already happening anyways ... as I said: new to the topic.
1. Yes, some people seem to take this a bit too seriously, like they were hired by Zanz to design cards or something. That's definitely not the case. I've explain the situation many times already and there's nothing more I can do about that really.

2. My point is that games like chess and MtG, although both games, are so fundamentally different that you cannot really compare them when talking about things like new cards. Chess is a game that is polished and ready. The rules will never change because they are perfect already. It would be pretty ridiculous to suddenly change how Horses move or something.

MtG on the other hand will never be ready. As long as MtG is around, they will produce new cards. They will never say: "Ok, guys that's enough. We will now stop making new cards." (unless people stop buying them). Why would they do that because selling cards is how they make their money. Sure, people get fed up with buying new cards all the time but that's the nature of CCG business, and new players will replace those that quit.

3. This has already happened, and hopefully will happen again. I'm also planning on contacting some graphic design websites, maybe ask people to donate 1-2 illustrations to Elements. It's a win-win situation really: they get something new for their portfolios and some explosure, and Zanz gets new art.

miniwally

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Re: Upcoming changes to "Card Ideas" section https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg54964#msg54964
« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2010, 10:25:30 pm »
3. -> Couldn't someone design a card-concept, then ask vrt to make some awesome art for it?
I guess this is already happening anyways ... as I said: new to the topic.
I think vrt might get a little mad if everyone who makes a card idea (with no picture) asks him to make one. I'm pretty sure he needs some time to do other stuff than drawing picture for elements but spreading out the requests for card art (as SG has said) contacting graphic design websites for some art is pretty much (although not completely) a win-win situation.

Also if you're going to carry on with the chess analogy (I think that's the right word) then can we please call the pieces "knights" and "rooks" rather than "horses" and "castles" respectively, I know its being really picky but for some reason it just makes me sort of annoyed when they use the incorrect word (I want a better word to explain it than annoyed but can't think of one). It's not you that makes me annoyed it's the word (if that makes any sense).

 

blarg: