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Offline timetock

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1101894#msg1101894
« Reply #336 on: October 09, 2013, 02:30:08 pm »
Bill knew Bob had a tendency to go and get a midnight snack, so Bill pretended to go to his room while actually waiting all night outside BoB's room. Bob opened his door silently, and Bill ambushed him. He killed Bob silently, dragged his body onto the bed, and waited in the closet until morning. When the detective came into the room, Bill sneaked out of the room via broken window and dashed into the guesthouse using the opened front door, then he busted down Fred's room. However Fred was awake and there was a struggle. Both fatally wounded each other, and they climbed back to their respective beds and died. Oh, they locked the door behind them for some reason.

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1101928#msg1101928
« Reply #337 on: October 09, 2013, 04:26:13 pm »
Bill knew Bob had a tendency to go and get a midnight snack, so Bill pretended to go to his room while actually waiting all night outside BoB's room. Bob opened his door silently, and Bill ambushed him. He killed Bob silently, dragged his body onto the bed, and waited in the closet until morning. When the detective came into the room, Bill sneaked out of the room via broken window and dashed into the guesthouse using the opened front door, then he busted down Fred's room. However Fred was awake and there was a struggle. Both fatally wounded each other, and they climbed back to their respective beds and died. Oh, they locked the door behind them for some reason.

Can't bother to quote the whole 2nd post so just saying what it's needed from it:

In this game, a culprit cannot die.
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Offline eljoemo

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1101971#msg1101971
« Reply #338 on: October 09, 2013, 06:37:18 pm »
Seeing as I was beautifully ignored  >:( i will put my views into a theory.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I think i might have found a loophole.

Quote
- A culprit in this game is defined as "One who has murdered one of the game's victims."

- A "victim" in this game is defined as a human in the story who has been murdered by one of the game's culprits.

We know that your cousins die. We also know that a victim cannot commit suicide. However, no-one said that the cousins were actually victims. The definition of a "victim" requires there to be a "culprit". The definition of a "culprit" requires there to be a victim. If there is no "culprit", there are no "victims". All 3 cousins locked up the rooms and committed suicide. Since there is no "culprit", they do not qualify as "victims" so no red truth is breached.

This is most likely wrong but its worth a shot.

Also, I would like a specific red truth to counter my previous blue theory.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Theory time!

This is quite a long read.

The mansion is actually a cover up for a secret cloning laboratory. It was built to look ancient and run down so as to seem inconspicuous. The legend of the witch was also created to keep people away. The mansion is actually a high tech building kept in pristine standards. This explains the outhouse building being so much better looked after. Your cousins are all scientists who have in fact been co-operating with whoever runs the facility and as a result have many clones of themselves. The real reason behind this trip is to visit the "mansion" to do more work/experiments.

However, whilst they slept, the was a breakout at the facility (Oh no!). 3 clones escaped and it just so happened that these clones were of Bob, Fred and Bill. They knew that they were experiments and swore to get revenge on their evil creators. So each clone climbed through the window with a knife to kill their respective cousin. But they were too loud, the original cousins awoke and after a brief (yet quiet) fight, each clone was lying dead on the bed. The cousins then panicked. They never meant to kill anyone. They locked their rooms and hid in the bathroom and locked the door. A nightmare ridden sleep engulfed them all.

Morning came, you awoke. The cousins were too fearful to open their doors to you. As you smashed each window, it was true that the body was dead and that it belonged to one of your cousins. And that you and the cousin were the only humans in the room. Discovering a tragedy, you run and hide under the table...

But wait! There's more!

The secret operation was flawed. A double agent worked at the facility. Someone who was against the evil that happened there. She (yes, a woman. This story had a gender inbalance, ok?) was the one who let the clones out and told them to kill the originals. She watched as the clones were stabbed and the scientists hid. She had failed... Until you came along and smashed the windows in. She went into each guestroom after you had checked, kicked the bathroom door down, killed the cousin and hid the body. When the police arrived, the attention from your story of a witch would prompt a full investigation, leading to the discovery of the secret lab.


Culprit: check
Motive: check
Method: check
Although your cousins died, they were not the "victims" of the murder. They all happened to commit suicide at the same time after locking up their rooms. On the same night, the "witch" killed 3 totally unrelated people in another house somewhere, whether using magic or not. It is these 3 people who qualify as the "victims" and the witch who qualifies as the "culprit". We don't have to prove that there was no witch, only that magic was not used in the death of your cousins.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 05:05:35 am by eljoemo »
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Offline Calindu

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1101974#msg1101974
« Reply #339 on: October 09, 2013, 06:46:51 pm »
Seeing as I was beautifully ignored  >:( i will put my views into a theory.

Spoiler for Hidden:
I think i might have found a loophole.

Quote
- A culprit in this game is defined as "One who has murdered one of the game's victims."

- A "victim" in this game is defined as a human in the story who has been murdered by one of the game's culprits.

We know that your cousins die. We also know that a victim cannot commit suicide. However, no-one said that the cousins were actually victims. The definition of a "victim" requires there to be a "culprit". The definition of a "culprit" requires there to be a victim. If there is no "culprit", there are no "victims". All 3 cousins locked up the rooms and committed suicide. Since there is no "culprit", they do not qualify as "victims" so no red truth is breached.

This is most likely wrong but its worth a shot.

Also, I would like a specific red truth to counter my previous blue theory.
Spoiler for Hidden:
Theory time!

This is quite a long read.

The mansion is actually a cover up for a secret cloning laboratory. It was built to look ancient and run down so as to seem inconspicuous. The legend of the witch was also created to keep people away. The mansion is actually a high tech building kept in pristine standards. This explains the outhouse building being so much better looked after. Your cousins are all scientists who have in fact been co-operating with whoever runs the facility and as a result have many clones of themselves. The real reason behind this trip is to visit the "mansion" to do more work/experiments.

However, whilst they slept, the was a breakout at the facility (Oh no!). 3 clones escaped and it just so happened that these clones were of Bob, Fred and Bill. They knew that they were experiments and swore to get revenge on their evil creators. So each clone climbed through the window with a knife to kill their respective cousin. But they were too loud, the original cousins awoke and after a brief (yet quiet) fight, each clone was lying dead on the bed. The cousins then panicked. They never meant to kill anyone. They locked their rooms and hid in the bathroom and locked the door. A nightmare ridden sleep engulfed them all.

Morning came, you awoke. The cousins were too fearful to open their doors to you. As you smashed each window, it was true that the body was dead and that it belonged to one of your cousins. And that you and the cousin were the only humans in the room. Discovering a tragedy, you run and hide under the table...

But wait! There's more!

The secret operation was flawed. A double agent worked at the facility. Someone who was against the evil that happened there. She (yes, a woman. This story had a gender inbalance, ok?) was the one who let the clones out and told them to kill the originals. She watched as the clones were stabbed and the scientists hid. She had failed... Until you came along and smashed the windows in. She went into each guestroom after you had checked, kicked the bathroom door down, killed the cousin and hid the body. When the police arrived, the attention from your story of a witch would prompt a full investigation, leading to the discovery of the secret lab.


Culprit: check
Motive: check
Method: check
[/spoiler]

Although your cousins died, they were not the "victims" of the murder. They all happened to commit suicide at the same time after locking up their rooms. On the same night, the "witch" killed 3 totally unrelated people in another house somewhere, whether using magic or not. It is these 3 people who qualify as the "victims" and the witch who qualifies as the "culprit". We don't have to prove that there was no witch, only that magic was not used in the death of your cousins.

Again, not gonna bother to quote everything, but:

In this game, only a victim can die. Therefore, deaths of non-victims cannot be used as a basis for a theory.
No victim died as a result of suicide. I will extend this to accidents, heart attacks, or any other way of dying without the will of a separate killer.


If you don't like to be ignored, just read how your theory is countered.
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Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102073#msg1102073
« Reply #340 on: October 09, 2013, 11:00:43 pm »
Cmon, there's some sort of subtle loophole that EvaRita's exploiting. Let's find it, and exploit it for all it's worth.
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Offline EvaRiaTopic starter

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102152#msg1102152
« Reply #341 on: October 10, 2013, 06:36:21 am »
This seems like a reasonable clarification:

In any case where a character mentioned in the story commits suicide, that character will qualify as both a victim and a culprit. After all, they both murdered a victim and were killed by a culprit.

Offline Kakerlake

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102175#msg1102175
« Reply #342 on: October 10, 2013, 08:22:10 am »
The humans mentioned in the story include only you, the three cousins, and the man who gave you the key.
In short, no other possibility for a human culprit exists.

Does this also include disguising oneself as another human?
So is it theoretically possible that the culprit could be fake Fred (who has some clues on himself that he isn't really Fred)?
I'm guessing that the disguising theory is still legit.

The culprit is a fake Fred.

Why? Because he said "They say that in this very guesthouse, there lives a Witch who practices dark magic..."
Who is "They"? There is no one in the area that Fred would recognise except for the owner, so he hasn't talked to anyone except for the owner.
And someone not from the area should hardly know stories of the witch in the backyard of some run down mansion.

Motive? He accidentally killed real Fred waaay back and wanted to disguise his accidental murder as a crazy story no one would believe, so he'd be free to go.


yeah, I'm pushing it. didn't find any real 'clue' or logical flaw in the story that would indicate someone is disguising himself as one of the cousins :/

All three victims were murdered at some point after you and the three cousins entered the guesthouse in the story.
It is not the case that a victim had died before that point.

In this case, the fake Fred hasn't killed Fred waaay back. Instead, he had dumped him in the trunk of the car, neatly tied up and made unable to make himself noticed.
So Fred was killed at about the same time as the others.

Offline EvaRiaTopic starter

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102180#msg1102180
« Reply #343 on: October 10, 2013, 09:03:37 am »
I will clarify Knox's Tenth in context.

Any clues that you might "find" in my story that "might" suggest a disguised character are entirely unintended.

At no point in this game does one character attempt to disguise themselves as another.
As such, there are no circumstances in which you would mistake one character for someone else.

Offline Kakerlake

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102182#msg1102182
« Reply #344 on: October 10, 2013, 09:30:18 am »
In that case, if there is a culprit, he has to be one of the 3 cousins (owner and detective can't be it), as stated by previous red truths.
As a culprit can't die and the 3 cousins are dead, this leaves only the conclusion that there is no culprit.
Since there is no culprit and the cousins didn't die by accident or any other non willed murder, they must still be alive. That however opposes the red truth that they are dead at some point after the story (be it old age or whatever).

hm... I'm stuck :/

Offline timetock

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102185#msg1102185
« Reply #345 on: October 10, 2013, 09:56:28 am »
In that case, if there is a culprit, he has to be one of the 3 cousins (owner and detective can't be it), as stated by previous red truths.
As a culprit can't die and the 3 cousins are dead, this leaves only the conclusion that there is no culprit.
Since there is no culprit and the cousins didn't die by accident or any other non willed murder, they must still be alive. That however opposes the red truth that they are dead at some point after the story (be it old age or whatever).

hm... I'm stuck :/

That means they must be somehow both dead and alive.
THIS IS THE ANSWER

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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102266#msg1102266
« Reply #346 on: October 10, 2013, 06:18:09 pm »
I think I understand but could you repeat this in red:

Any person who is killed is considered a victim, the person who killed them is considered a culprit
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Re: The Witch's Game - By EvaRia https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=51086.msg1102294#msg1102294
« Reply #347 on: October 10, 2013, 07:45:22 pm »
Prior to the arrival of the cousins and yourself, the culprit enterred each of the rooms prior to it being locked. The culprit installed a simple pendulum in each of the victim's bed. When the victim laid down on the bed, the knife would stab the victim in the vitals and kill them instantly. It was easy to make. The beds were airy and much like a balloon. All the culprit needed was some tubing (shaped like a inverted funnel probably) and something sharp, after which pressure would do the rest. The culprit, after setting up a trap in each of these rooms then emptied each toilet of its water. He poured some special preservation fluids into the toilet to fill it halfway or so, after making sure that anything that went down the toilet can be caught and taken out of some piping outside. The culprit then cut his index finger, his middle finger, and his ring finger and inserted one into each of the toilets alive. Some time later, you and the victims arrive at the building. Each victim goes to their respective rooms, locks the door, and locks the window. Each victim goes into the bathroom, and seeing an alive finger in it, flush the toilet to make it "go away". While the finger floats around the edges of the toilet as it flushes, each victim runs out of the bedrooms and jumps onto the bed. The resulting force of their dive into the bed causes the pendulum to push the knife into their body and each victim dies instantly, in the same exact way, all before the toilet finishes its flush cycle and the alive finger goes down the toilet. All three fingers are caught in a bucket outside of the house where the tubing was opened and the culprit leaves the property with all three of his detached fingers and the rest of his fingers.
after some deep soliloquizzing, this is what I came up with. i wish you luck in finding a counter to this... there are a few but it may contradict other truths, hehehe.~

 

anything
blarg: