Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword

[Coffeeditto]

I haven't read the last few posts, but this took a while to compose.

Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?

There are several reasons that I have pointed out so far. If you want to sum it up in generic points:

• First and foremost: lack of conviction. Your actions should be based on YOUR belief on what YOU think is bets for town, as well as taking responsibility for those actions and explaining why you believe it was in town's best interests. I have completely missed this the entire game. That was also my point on Cal/andre that you pointed out. Same for targeting people in general after the dawn kill. You should do these things because you believe them to be the right thing, not because some vague concept of town consensus when there are only 2-3 people engaged in that discussion. That is NOT consensus. Lack of conviction was also when you vigged dawn: "that's what rob did as town, so it's okay" is a terrible reason. Unless you understand and agree with the underlying reason for this and use that to explain why you did it, it sounds more like a lame excuse to kill some town.

If you read my post in on of my responses to moe (i think it was moe?), you'll see there was no lack of conviction about my dawn vig. i stated that i stood by my action, and refused to say it was a bad idea. moe even asked if i felt no remorse for it, and i responded that i clearly did but i wouldn't go back on my decision to do it. The reason i followed through with the dawn vig was stated by me multiple times when everyone scumread me for it: dawn had one of the lowest post counts, did not release any information to us, did not claim a power role and was more useful to the mafia than the town at that point in the game.

• Insistence on talking about scum Raidens early game, yet somehow never worried your targeting would be affected. All your ability uses hit their marks. I know the latter can simply be luck, or even strategy from scum since they have no reason to interfere with town dying, but it's still nagging my mind.

And all of kae's didn't get driven away besides from a town rita. I'm not sure how that interaction would work, but just as all of mine hit their marks, the same could be said about kae's targets, which would benefit the scum to drive away from far more than my vigs. Right?

• Ironically, the reason people initially town read you, the very same reason Linkcat told people not to town read me for, is talking mechanics. It's why I considered rob a hypocrite for putting both of us as town reads. I never mentioned this before, since before N3, this could have had some major backfire to point out.

Is this a point against me?

• I find kaempfer13 to be more likely town.

Okay. Fair.

• There are several now-dead town that scum read you when my plan for confirming ian was set into motion, they all agreed with this plan knowing you could not escape being lynched as mafia as long as it was followed. Both me and kaempfer13 insisted that if someone wanted to make a case on us, they should do it then and there before the plan is set in motion to eliminate everyone else. You silently agreed with this plan by vigging Cal and made no attempts to scum read either of us until the very end. Deviating from lynching you, would feel like a betrayal to all the dead town that entrusted me to follow the laid out plan.

Just as it's a betrayal from me on their part to let this game end early without making an effort to win for us all. If I was mafia, I would've resigned already, but as I stated earlier, I don't want 14 people pissed at me for not trying. If they all scumread me, they also all scumread the mislynches, right? And we see how our first 3 days and day 6 turned out. (and how day 7 will turn out) It's important to note the reads, sure, but equally as important to acknowledge the accuracy prior and the reasoning for scumreading me. It seems like those reasons don't align with your reasons entirely.

saying i'm the lest mechanically towny here.

That probably says more about how likely I am to be town, leaving you to be scum.
what

Does removing the rest of the quote better emphasize how that makes you less mechanically town than me?My point here was that mechanics are no longer important besides acknowledging i didn't use a honkai core n1.

Consistency is an easy facade for scummy behavior.

People being themselves is NAI from my point of view. Glad we agree?

You are in fact right in thinking that at that point that long ago, I expected kae to be in a 3way with you and I and I would be forced to thunderdome with him and use that as one of my arguments. No, I'm pointing out the correlation here, and that out of the two kae chose cal over DC. It's consistent with his views, but does that make it less notable?

What. See first point on why I think you are scum, this is just you abandoning the responsibility of not targeting scum. kae asked me to ask the town for a consensus and repeatedly called for a lynchvote for my vig on cal, which i obliged to because it was better than a randovig. my first semirandovig hit town, and i didn't want to fuck up again.

It's important to note Sub's stance here, no? Did we ever get the answer about kae helping to hunt for mafia? The most he did was benefit town after you pointed out the seele/raiden interactions. His ability usage is, again, not towny nor scummy. Just what needed to happen at the time when DC/Andre were already scumread.

My answer was that I would probably have ended up lynching both after moes reveal, regardless of kaempfer13s statements. Ironically, Subs earlier stance was that the person initiating a mass role-claim is almost always town (kaempfer13). Perhaps he saw it as me initiating a mass role claim, but my intention was only ever to hard claim my own role. It could even be that that was the point he was trying to drive across then all along, with me not intentionally initiating the role claim seeming even townier, who knows. But kae was safe to initiate a mass roleclaim at that point, especially considering the role he had and the discovery of dc having copied andre's raiden. the truth of the mafia would come out sooner than later and it's smarter to figure out who the cop is before shit hits the fan, right? dispose of the important roles that could mess you up later sooner. my guess is he didn't hit anyone noteworthy with core of reason or lightning, and needed to find the cop and doc before his ways to secure kills went.

What if he had used it on one of the Raidens? That could present some issues, unless the Seele!Raiden doesn't carry over to Sin Mal.

kdz did in fact target andretimpa before he got lynched, but DC rerouted it to me. Core of binding made it impossible to use it before DC got lynched the day after. This was not clear at the time kaempfer13 posted this, however. But kdz would still have been defenseless, since Raiden cannot self-target. It's still a potential doc role, and if for some reason kae decided that kdz wasn't the optimal kill, it could have presented issues with how the kill played out.

And why would he not fake confusion as mafia? That makes no sense to me. It's trying to derpclear if he's going that way, and is as valid a strategy as not.

Right. So you gotta read the posts and see if the confusion makes sense and is genuine. For example, Subs "derpclear" on how many mafia were in the game? DENIED. That should have been super obvious. How can you determine what is genuine or not in a game like this? It's based on lying and deceipt. Come on, man. Also, there was no way for it to be cleared through making sense or not; i think i understand what you're saying, and that qualifier doesn't apply to this.

[/list]

[kaempfer13]

Unvoting is indeed a terrible way to break a 3-way tie, though.

Mostly I was stalling for time as i didnt feel either of the lead wagons and thought it had been too long since the last votecount. then link clarified that reposting vc extended timer all the same, so it was unnecessary altogether.

[kaempfer13]

ian vote was a pressure vote aka "do sth", moe i believed slipped, though I've recovered from that and rob i legitimately scumread to this day (and i stayed on ian when he became a legitimate wagon because shocks eod was towny and he was less usefull than either w3 and dc who i oth had no nonneutral read on), so my votes were not at all because I didnt know what to do with it.

yh I've read every post of link twice now and find zero reference to what I can find in the honkai wiki about theresa, the claims are all not serious aside from "ccing" moe, but none of dc,oa,moe has shared a role that link could confirm, so this was talking about durandal

BTW these 2 quotes from ages ago address 2 of the very things that coffee is trying to scumread me based off. Him failing to read is one of the reasons why I dont actually want to engage with him atp.

[kaempfer13]

Also coffee, can you pls share your wisdom of what action exactly link crumbed? I can still not see how that crumb would help us learn anything. At most it could have made people think that he was some kind of powerrole 8which he actually was, but not the one he joked about), but he didnt seriously crumb his actual findings unless everyone but you overlooked sth.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

And all of kae's didn't get driven away besides from a town rita. I'm not sure how that interaction would work, but just as all of mine hit their marks, the same could be said about kae's targets, which would benefit the scum to drive away from far more than my vigs. Right?

Eh? The role results say nothing about which targets he hit N2, that's part of why he was confused about andres target claims and concluded they made no sense. And when you target everyone (N1) (except yourself), only a redirect to yourself can potentially screw up ability totals.

Is this a point against me?

On how easy it is for mafia to gain town credit with talking mechanics. I'm not sure what other points I'm supposed to town read you for. You certainly didn't seem particularly interested in solving until you became a serious lynch target.

Just as it's a betrayal from me on their part to let this game end early without making an effort to win for us all. If I was mafia, I would've resigned already, but as I stated earlier, I don't want 14 people pissed at me for not trying. If they all scumread me, they also all scumread the mislynches, right? And we see how our first 3 days and day 6 turned out. (and how day 7 will turn out) It's important to note the reads, sure, but equally as important to acknowledge the accuracy prior and the reasoning for scumreading me. It seems like those reasons don't align with your reasons entirely.

lol

My point here was that mechanics are no longer important besides acknowledging i didn't use a honkai core n1.

I'd say the mechanics applied to get to this situation and the people that applied them are rather relevant in assessing their alignment.

But kae was safe to initiate a mass roleclaim at that point, especially considering the role he had and the discovery of dc having copied andre's raiden. the truth of the mafia would come out sooner than later and it's smarter to figure out who the cop is before shit hits the fan, right? dispose of the important roles that could mess you up later sooner. my guess is he didn't hit anyone noteworthy with core of reason or lightning, and needed to find the cop and doc before his ways to secure kills went.

Pretty sure cop was already revealed by that point. Leaving only doc to worry about.

How can you determine what is genuine or not in a game like this? It's based on lying and deceipt. Come on, man. Also, there was no way for it to be cleared through making sense or not; i think i understand what you're saying, and that qualifier doesn't apply to this.

Tone reads and stuff. Some people are just really bad at faking things, or fake things they'd never actually do as town.

[Coffeeditto]

Unvoting is indeed a terrible way to break a 3-way tie, though.

Mostly I was stalling for time as i didnt feel either of the lead wagons and thought it had been too long since the last votecount. then link clarified that reposting vc extended timer all the same, so it was unnecessary altogether.

but what about when link tied it up? was that to extend the timer past its 30-minute limit?

ian vote was a pressure vote aka "do sth", moe i believed slipped, though I've recovered from that and rob i legitimately scumread to this day (and i stayed on ian when he became a legitimate wagon because shocks eod was towny and he was less usefull than either w3 and dc who i oth had no nonneutral read on), so my votes were not at all because I didnt know what to do with it.

yh I've read every post of link twice now and find zero reference to what I can find in the honkai wiki about theresa, the claims are all not serious aside from "ccing" moe, but none of dc,oa,moe has shared a role that link could confirm, so this was talking about durandal

BTW these 2 quotes from ages ago address 2 of the very things that coffee is trying to scumread me based off. Him failing to read is one of the reasons why I dont actually want to engage with him atp.

I have repeated time and time again that you didn't break a tie and almost forced a NL when you had the ability to hammer onto either one of the bandwagons. did you think that in the minute and a half you had left before the timer ticked out that there was going to be a flip onto ian? and would you have rather had a nl than a lynch on dc or shock?

Also coffee, can you pls share your wisdom of what action exactly link crumbed? I can still not see how that crumb would help us learn anything. At most it could have made people think that he was some kind of powerrole 8which he actually was, but not the one he joked about), but he didnt seriously crumb his actual findings unless everyone but you overlooked sth.

Kae - elements mafia 49. Might have to dig it out, i don't remember if that lives in the usual place for old games here it not.

Rob, that was a scrubbed game that we played literally half a decade ago. Don't try to read off of it.

kae, I'd like you to explicitly rule out Raiden as rob mentioned the possibility. Obviously, we don't know the exact wording in your PM.

That confirms there is Rita who also likes to play ballsy. Maybe too ballsy for town? If we end up finding out a more cautious player is Rita it would hint at scum/scum with an information role such as Cocolia. But there's s big margin of error here.

We also know Durandal is in the game, yay, and this also confirms Oa for me, unless someone speaks up in the next few hours. Take good care of him next night.


EBWOP, soft-confirming www3's roll. :/

I soft counterclaim your soft confirm.

moe DC OA are mafia according to my rolls. Infact, as you can see, DC and OA came in both of my rolls :angry:

23:37:03] ‹worldwideweb3› (3d18) 15 + 4 + 15 = 34 ...!!
[23:37:07] ‹worldwideweb3› ew
[23:37:10] ‹worldwideweb3› (3d18) 18 + 4 + 15 = 37 ...✗

This is the "www3 roll" that moe was referring to that Link soft counterclaimed moe's facetious "soft confirm"... Could it be Link crumbing that his N0 'spear' returned a non-Herscherr result on one of the players www3's rolls playfully identified - being moe / DC / Oa. Perhaps but seems a stretch, then again crumbs are supposed to be thin and veiled or not too obvious otherwise they are detected too soon??

[kaempfer13]

except the role doesnt do that. It tells the type of ability, preferring core over actual role. This is only relevant once people claim

[kaempfer13]

I already addressed what i did when link tied it up. if i were scum id always lynch shock then and noone would dare tying it again. However instead i had to think which one of 2 people i dont actually scumread i had to vote (and considering one of them was shock id probably have made the wrong call anyway and torb broke the tie in the end). also ian vote wasnt quite out of reach yet really.

[Coffeeditto]

And all of kae's didn't get driven away besides from a town rita. I'm not sure how that interaction would work, but just as all of mine hit their marks, the same could be said about kae's targets, which would benefit the scum to drive away from far more than my vigs. Right?

Eh? The role results say nothing about which targets he hit N2, that's part of why he was confused about andres target claims and concluded they made no sense. And when you target everyone (N1) (except yourself), only a redirect to yourself can potentially screw up ability totals.
and he got redirected to himself, but what if raiden redirected onto kae also? still messes him up i would think. it's just not a valid point to say that me not being redirected is scummy when he wasn't either.

Is this a point against me?

On how easy it is for mafia to gain town credit with talking mechanics. I'm not sure what other points I'm supposed to town read you for. You certainly didn't seem particularly interested in solving until you became a serious lynch target.
at that point i have to solve, right? i don't want the game to end with me being lynched. i scumread dc and voted on him from the very beginning, and was trying to solve but not devoutly, and why would i not try to solve now?

My point here was that mechanics are no longer important besides acknowledging i didn't use a honkai core n1.

I'd say the mechanics applied to get to this situation and the people that applied them are rather relevant in assessing their alignment.
then i got shafted with rolling the roles because my role doesn't solve, only kills or not other than revealing my identity.

But kae was safe to initiate a mass roleclaim at that point, especially considering the role he had and the discovery of dc having copied andre's raiden. the truth of the mafia would come out sooner than later and it's smarter to figure out who the cop is before shit hits the fan, right? dispose of the important roles that could mess you up later sooner. my guess is he didn't hit anyone noteworthy with core of reason or lightning, and needed to find the cop and doc before his ways to secure kills went.

Pretty sure cop was already revealed by that point. Leaving only doc to worry about.
then doc it is.

How can you determine what is genuine or not in a game like this? It's based on lying and deceipt. Come on, man. Also, there was no way for it to be cleared through making sense or not; i think i understand what you're saying, and that qualifier doesn't apply to this.

Tone reads and stuff. Some people are just really bad at faking things, or fake things they'd never actually do as town.
and your tone read on kae is that he was being genuine?

I already addressed what i did when link tied it up. if i were scum id always lynch shock then and noone would dare tying it again. However instead i had to think which one of 2 people i dont actually scumread i had to vote (and considering one of them was shock id probably have made the wrong call anyway and torb broke the tie in the end). also ian vote wasnt quite out of reach yet really.

why would you want to be the person who mishammers into a town role that directly targetted you? that would look scummy as hell, and throw shade onto you. you chose not to raise suspicion AND not to hammer your partner. also, the ian vote was out of reach with link's devotion to lynching shock and the rest of the active people not scumreading ian over shock or dc.

except the role doesnt do that. It tells the type of ability, preferring core over actual role. This is only relevant once people claim

if you were so adamant on moe slipping, and assumed he was maf or investigative, then link probably guessed that too. then, upon checking moe and knowing he had to be dura because link was the only other alignment-investigative, he could have seen EoR and assumed he was town. it just seems like not something you would skip and you can say that link doesn't say stuff seriously like that, but it's still of note that you didn't even mention it in passing.

[Coffeeditto]

also torb, can we talk about how you've done all of the defending for kae and he's raised the same points over and over without point out things he scumreads me for?

[kaempfer13]

ok this too dumb for me. I LITERALLY MENTIONED IT IN PASSING IN LITERALLY THE POST I DUG UP TO PROVE YOU'RE NOT LISTENING mere minutes ago. Seriously, just not worth discussing anymore at this point, you pay absolutely 0 attention.

[kaempfer13]

YOU EVEN QUOTED IT.