Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword

[Coffeeditto]

Coffee you bring up me insisting on ian day 1 a lot, but you realize I could have just voted shock at the end and noone would have dared tying the wagons again. So pretty much what Torb did  . Just saying, not that I would scumread TorB, but if its not you it has to be him.
And dont tell me I couldnt justify voting shock. One can always justify voting shock.

I’m not sure i understand the first part of this. As far as your comment on shock, you can say that retrospectively, sure, but your reasoning would have been him being on you and as mafia of course you would want to have reasoning. With core of reason, a nl is better than a lynch on an outed role or your partner, no? so you can get more information?

kaempfer13 not including DC in his targets was consistent with him not scumreading DC, however. If kaempfer13 had Core of Lightning, how would anyone other than kaempfer13 have seen its use? If kaempfer13 held onto the Core of Reason and mafia could guarantee nightkills with Raidens, why NK Link N1, instead of Oa? Depending on how fast andre noticed me being Emma, if he was even speaking the truth on that, mafia would have been much better of killing Oa N1 and me N2. I had been telling myself the delayed kill on Oa was to ensure Fu Hua did not become suspicious of Raiden, but I am not so sure anymore. There was also the interesting Link/Coffee interaction regarding cop, so if my theory is that Coffee used Core of Reason on Link N0, hmmm...

kaempfer13s ian vote there was one that he had temporarily removed when both me and Oa simultaneously swapped onto ian, suddenly making him a viable lynch target. He did agree that he must vote because of Bronya, so he put it back where it was when Oa and I switched away from ian. Voting on DC/shock instead would have been preferred, indeed.

i don’t have a response for the core of lightning usage, and as far as core of reason goes, i’m not sure how the mechanics would work in terms of mafia knowing to kill Link but he did soft twice, and although we missed the more subtle one the first time around, kae wouldn’t with his ‘hawk eye for slips’. Also, how do you mean interesting cop interaction? The me saying i would protect him? that’s just a roleswap that i thought we were both taking part in because i knew that my role as cecilia was less valuable than a doc. pattern of townreading dc until someone has reason against it and then buddying with them is clear here

I did mention links "softcounterclaim", but what exactly is that supposed to crumb? He saw moe being EoR and assumrd durandal? He saw that oa was passive which doesnt prove anything?
He was obv talking about how durandal hasnt screamed that oa was scum at the time.

it was a roll, right? a roll determining who was scum or not, and moe as dura confirmed that they were scum or at least one of them from his point of view, and link counter claimed that by softing his theresa report showing no cores meaning someone was vil.

Coffee, half your points are downright Nonsense. Quite frankly I dont feel like adressing them all. Also you swapped townread and scumread plenty of times, which is hell of a mistake to make.

dismissing my points like this is not a valid rebuttal.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Now that I'm on laptop instead of phone, lets add my thoughts on each point (except for a few vague ones where I have nothing to add, or that I addressed earlier):

Rita Rossweisse targeted me. I'm not sure what to make of it wrt ritas alignement, but i dont like it. I was a little surprised to learn that even though im forced to target her, i still have no idea who she is. Seems to be some kind of impressive mindcontrol ability.

This is wifom trying to indicate that he doesn't have the core, but still voicing his annoyance because being redirected onto shock with his core doesn't yield positive results.

This is just as true for his Frederica Tesla ability as town, which he has already stated at some point after his reveal.

dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - Linkcat, PlayerOa, kamepfer13

I don't know how much I can stress that he wanted to try and 'flip a wagon' onto ian when there were 2 minutes left in the voting timer. He posted after link had forced a nl and chose not to break the tie, which he counters by saying that he was going to in the very short amount of time left. I can't trust that.

He literally removed his vote earlier when he became a viable wagon, invalid argument.

Wagonomics strongly suggest DC town. He was topwagon very frequently (competing with various different wagons) and the vote that decided he lives another day was torb, who i tr and who also had voted him with intend to kill afaik before, so doesnt look like any effort went into saving him.
To a lesser extend, I tr w3 for the same reason I tr timpa last game (that was wrong though, so maybe i shouldnt tr people for this anymore) as after he stopped memevoting dc he actually defended dc as early as when he was the competing topwagon.

this looking at DC being scum is not very sound reasoning. the effort that went into saving him was you not hammering on him or shock.

I think credit to saving him goes to Linkcat, though.

ian vote was a pressure vote aka "do sth", moe i believed slipped, though I've recovered from that and rob i legitimately scumread to this day (and i stayed on ian when he became a legitimate wagon because shocks eod was towny and he was less usefull than either w3 and dc who i oth had no nonneutral read on), so my votes were not at all because I didnt know what to do with it.

your vote on ian was a pressure vote even though you voted on him with 3 or so minutes left on the EoD extension timer?

He had already voted him earlier, before he was a competing wagon.

Tbh, i dont really see why Cecilia finishing dawn off is particularly scummy. I mean it does go against the consensus of vocal players, but very publicly so; similiar to how shock did, i dont exactly condon going against the grain without even speaking up about it, but as scum!cecilia you are just painting a target on your back. In fact as scum!Cecilia its best to mark many different people, denying us the flip and then finish them off one after the other, ending the game early.

you townread my cecilia vig on dawn here but are now using it as one of the main bases of your arguments, saying i'm the lest mechanically towny here.

That probably says more about how likely I am to be town, leaving you to be scum.

yes, if coffee lives we can force ian to kill someone in addition to coffees kil (and coffee not using your ability after already outing is beyond dumb, as the first half has literally no drawback)

it actually would be beyond dumb at that point in time if you thought i could be mafia, as if i had used it multiple times (every night) the game would be over if i had maf majority with yesterday's lynching of sub. however, i'm wondering if you weren't concerned with that possibility as you already knew my alignment?

This is consistent with kaempfer13s reasoning of vigging everyone as town being a good play.

for the 100th time that specific scenario instantly outs a scumrole so while there is a high chance the rolesearcher is town and alive that just wont happen

i think you're closer to the 2nd or maybe 3rd time

but valid point. any suggestions for targets? i might just go on dc or cal

I prefer cal out of those for obv reasons

again defending or steering the target away from his partner like i mentioned earlier.

Ironically, from the inverted perspective, it's like you are -again- shifting the responsibility of not targeting mafia onto someone else, knowing full well andre was being more town read at that point in time. It's practically a rhetorical question baiting for someone to blame in retrospect.

I probably want my vote on someone that never had to feel threatened by the lynch except TorB and kdz. Considering my theory that all wagons so far were town, thats were the scum would have to be. Although the people coming to mind there are timpa and calindu, who i dont have particularly good reason to scumread outside that. And chances are that noone would hop on anyway, since people tend to hold onto old grudges here.

giving a non-commital slight townread to andre here

I was town reading andre before N3, too.

Oh missed w3s post.
I am Frederica Tesla.
Shock didnt have a honkai core and i was really pissed he significantly decreased the effectiveness of my ability.
Anyway 7 abilities other than my own were used n1.
Now the important part: N2 i targeted sub, kdz, coffee, mw, ian and cal n2. Only a single ability was used, coffees. However if andre and dc are truthfull I should have witnessed torb use an ability as well

this is where kae can use his ability to hide his core usage. notice how his ability usage does not include DC or andre, even though DC was scumread by many people by that point.

But not by kaempfer13.

Btw, dc actually said that rate up was a lie, claiming that he didnt get any of the roles his friend suggested, though he did. Perhaps he wanted to disguise as real raiden from the start.+ I too thought that seele clarification came a bit early, making it seem planned. So yh I think both are wolves. Sorry I defended dc for so long.

this is backpedaling after DC was going to be one of the next lynches.

NAI

DoubleCapitals (4) - iancudorinmarian, andretimpa, TheonlyrealBeef, kaempfer13

welp i did promise I would vote the one to post targets later (or not at all? please dont be like that). I see several questionable things from andre today as well though. he's in thunderdome with both dc and coffee simultaneously (unless coffee did use ability and was redirected by dc (wait for dc to claim before you say anything)), so even if we assume that both thunderdomes are v/w he's still likely scum.

this is just bussing again when we know that both of them are going to be lynched.

Not sure how this vote tells anything regarding alignment.

DoubleCapitals (4) - iancudorinmarian, andretimpa, TheonlyrealBeef, Submachine
andretimpa (5) - worldwideweb3, DoubleCapitals, rob77dp, Calindu, kaempfer13

be it because dc is town or has the honkai core thats worse, i prefer this lynch.

was the straw that pushed us to kill the person with core of binding. it didn't do much iirc, but still of note.

I found andre to be the scummiest of the two since his N0 action reveal. If he was already suspicious of Sub (maybe ian as well?) at that point in time, it made sense to join the wagon mafia wasn't bussing.

May dc never miss another eod. Unless its w3 or dc is innocent I think the game is pretty much mechanically solved now.

and here we are, where it's not mechanically solved.

It is from his perspective if he is town.

As I said, the game took a set course as soon as we all agreed to follow TorB's plan. As last game showed, being aware of someone possibly being the mafia achieves nothing if we do not vote on them. We should make a concensus whether we suspect Kae or TorB to be mafia (strongly enough that we actually vote on them!), and if not, put them off the table. I think if we have a deep wolf, it is Kae and not TorB. TorB did too many things, but I can't remember if Kae actually helped find a mafia, or he doubled down on a mafia that TorB found without him. I want an answer to this too from people who have good memory of this, then I will make a final decision whether I will consider voting Kae or not - if I even live for the next day.

He never voted, though. Even his final reads did not suggest kaempfer13 to be below N.

did kdz actually claim? i mean its obvious,but for some reason he wanted to keep it close to his chest

fishing for his role right before he was nightkilled; he died that night.

And? I shared his opinion that if he was going to die anyway, there was no reason left to hide it any longer. He did not die over his useless Sin Mal role, he died for being confirmed town.

Tbh, I'm not sure whether you flipping town would actually make me reconsider my poe. Probably not (well, obv it wouldnt be you, but i would probably just continue with the least towny remaining person, w3 before coffee and everyone else is essentially confirmed town to me assuming the plan  goes through). If I  seem phoned in, its because so long as town doesnt do anything silly and there is no actual case on me other than " if it aint anyone else ot has be you duh" i think  this is guaranteed to result in a town victory, so thats why im not really trying very hard anymore.

and this leads me to the end of my post; here, he's basically saying "i don't want to put in effort to solve as i think this is a free win for me." he assumed that everyone else alive universally scumread me more than him and so that was him coasting for the rest of the game.

I feel like it's NAI, unless he wanted really badly to scum read me.

throughout the game, kae has tried solving and all of his reads that were on his own volition were incorrect, along with saving dc multiple times and bussing when the maf were essentially already found. you say that he tried to solve more than me, but if your idea of solving is that he outed more reads, does that clear him more than me? with his ability, he could have purposefully omitted usages and hidden his core usages with core of reason. i assume that he just got multiple unlucky hits with it if that's what happened, as there is no correlation past the first nightkill with positive and important targets getting killed based off of nothing.

DC Day 1 was barely even being scum read, half the wagon just joined a top wagon for a lynch. Town read on andre was shared with me and NAI. And the first nightkill was ironically confirmed not attributed to kaempfer13. I don't think he himself was ever even a target of his own ability, so he does not even need to hide anything in his reveals. The crucial part being the confusion on whom used abilities after claims due to Raiden Mei interfering. As mafia, he would not be confused or fake it.

Also, how do you mean interesting cop interaction? The me saying i would protect him? that’s just a roleswap that i thought we were both taking part in because i knew that my role as cecilia was less valuable than a doc.

It's interesting you read anything into it to begin with, or that you think there are two soft claims from Link. The role reveal came as a complete surprise to me.

[kaempfer13]

24 hour condension (2) - TheonlyrealBeef, kaempfer13

[Coffeeditto]

Now that I'm on laptop instead of phone, lets add my thoughts on each point (except for a few vague ones where I have nothing to add, or that I addressed earlier):

Rita Rossweisse targeted me. I'm not sure what to make of it wrt ritas alignement, but i dont like it. I was a little surprised to learn that even though im forced to target her, i still have no idea who she is. Seems to be some kind of impressive mindcontrol ability.

This is wifom trying to indicate that he doesn't have the core, but still voicing his annoyance because being redirected onto shock with his core doesn't yield positive results.

This is just as true for his Frederica Tesla ability as town, which he has already stated at some point after his reveal.
Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?

dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - Linkcat, PlayerOa, kamepfer13

I don't know how much I can stress that he wanted to try and 'flip a wagon' onto ian when there were 2 minutes left in the voting timer. He posted after link had forced a nl and chose not to break the tie, which he counters by saying that he was going to in the very short amount of time left. I can't trust that.

He literally removed his vote earlier when he became a viable wagon, invalid argument.
But the point is he chose not to hammer, and instead remained out of the two wagons when he could have accidentally forced a NL because of it. The bronya avoiding was fine and all, but the lack of a decision to push one of the wagons at day end is interesting and scummy to me.

Wagonomics strongly suggest DC town. He was topwagon very frequently (competing with various different wagons) and the vote that decided he lives another day was torb, who i tr and who also had voted him with intend to kill afaik before, so doesnt look like any effort went into saving him.
To a lesser extend, I tr w3 for the same reason I tr timpa last game (that was wrong though, so maybe i shouldnt tr people for this anymore) as after he stopped memevoting dc he actually defended dc as early as when he was the competing topwagon.

this looking at DC being scum is not very sound reasoning. the effort that went into saving him was you not hammering on him or shock.

I think credit to saving him goes to Linkcat, though.
In the long run, he was the person who pushed the counterwagon, yes, but there was no way that DC would have lived unless someone on the DC wagon flipped (you) or no one from outside the wagon flipped onto him. It looks to me like at that point our options were you, me, Link, Sub, and kae.

ian vote was a pressure vote aka "do sth", moe i believed slipped, though I've recovered from that and rob i legitimately scumread to this day (and i stayed on ian when he became a legitimate wagon because shocks eod was towny and he was less usefull than either w3 and dc who i oth had no nonneutral read on), so my votes were not at all because I didnt know what to do with it.

your vote on ian was a pressure vote even though you voted on him with 3 or so minutes left on the EoD extension timer?

He had already voted him earlier, before he was a competing wagon.
Fair enough.

Tbh, i dont really see why Cecilia finishing dawn off is particularly scummy. I mean it does go against the consensus of vocal players, but very publicly so; similiar to how shock did, i dont exactly condon going against the grain without even speaking up about it, but as scum!cecilia you are just painting a target on your back. In fact as scum!Cecilia its best to mark many different people, denying us the flip and then finish them off one after the other, ending the game early.

you townread my cecilia vig on dawn here but are now using it as one of the main bases of your arguments, saying i'm the lest mechanically towny here.

That probably says more about how likely I am to be town, leaving you to be scum.
what

yes, if coffee lives we can force ian to kill someone in addition to coffees kil (and coffee not using your ability after already outing is beyond dumb, as the first half has literally no drawback)

it actually would be beyond dumb at that point in time if you thought i could be mafia, as if i had used it multiple times (every night) the game would be over if i had maf majority with yesterday's lynching of sub. however, i'm wondering if you weren't concerned with that possibility as you already knew my alignment?

This is consistent with kaempfer13s reasoning of vigging everyone as town being a good play.
Consistency is an easy facade for scummy behavior.

for the 100th time that specific scenario instantly outs a scumrole so while there is a high chance the rolesearcher is town and alive that just wont happen

i think you're closer to the 2nd or maybe 3rd time

but valid point. any suggestions for targets? i might just go on dc or cal

I prefer cal out of those for obv reasons

again defending or steering the target away from his partner like i mentioned earlier.

Ironically, from the inverted perspective, it's like you are -again- shifting the responsibility of not targeting mafia onto someone else, knowing full well andre was being more town read at that point in time. It's practically a rhetorical question baiting for someone to blame in retrospect.
You are in fact right in thinking that at that point that long ago, I expected kae to be in a 3way with you and I and I would be forced to thunderdome with him and use that as one of my arguments. No, I'm pointing out the correlation here, and that out of the two kae chose cal over DC. It's consistent with his views, but does that make it less notable?

I probably want my vote on someone that never had to feel threatened by the lynch except TorB and kdz. Considering my theory that all wagons so far were town, thats were the scum would have to be. Although the people coming to mind there are timpa and calindu, who i dont have particularly good reason to scumread outside that. And chances are that noone would hop on anyway, since people tend to hold onto old grudges here.

giving a non-commital slight townread to andre here

I was town reading andre before N3, too.
Cool. Still an important relation to note.

Oh missed w3s post.
I am Frederica Tesla.
Shock didnt have a honkai core and i was really pissed he significantly decreased the effectiveness of my ability.
Anyway 7 abilities other than my own were used n1.
Now the important part: N2 i targeted sub, kdz, coffee, mw, ian and cal n2. Only a single ability was used, coffees. However if andre and dc are truthfull I should have witnessed torb use an ability as well

this is where kae can use his ability to hide his core usage. notice how his ability usage does not include DC or andre, even though DC was scumread by many people by that point.

But not by kaempfer13.
Consistency over all, right? I consistently scumread DC, but that doesn't hold up in a court of law I guess.

Btw, dc actually said that rate up was a lie, claiming that he didnt get any of the roles his friend suggested, though he did. Perhaps he wanted to disguise as real raiden from the start.+ I too thought that seele clarification came a bit early, making it seem planned. So yh I think both are wolves. Sorry I defended dc for so long.

this is backpedaling after DC was going to be one of the next lynches.

NAI
Fair enough, I guess.

DoubleCapitals (4) - iancudorinmarian, andretimpa, TheonlyrealBeef, kaempfer13

welp i did promise I would vote the one to post targets later (or not at all? please dont be like that). I see several questionable things from andre today as well though. he's in thunderdome with both dc and coffee simultaneously (unless coffee did use ability and was redirected by dc (wait for dc to claim before you say anything)), so even if we assume that both thunderdomes are v/w he's still likely scum.

this is just bussing again when we know that both of them are going to be lynched.

Not sure how this vote tells anything regarding alignment.
SHows the progression of reads of kae onto the two people who filpped scum. Also sets up my next point, which is that out of the two kae voted the one with the better core to die with, contradicting what he says here.

DoubleCapitals (4) - iancudorinmarian, andretimpa, TheonlyrealBeef, Submachine
andretimpa (5) - worldwideweb3, DoubleCapitals, rob77dp, Calindu, kaempfer13

be it because dc is town or has the honkai core thats worse, i prefer this lynch.

was the straw that pushed us to kill the person with core of binding. it didn't do much iirc, but still of note.

I found andre to be the scummiest of the two since his N0 action reveal. If he was already suspicious of Sub (maybe ian as well?) at that point in time, it made sense to join the wagon mafia wasn't bussing.
fair enough, and his reasoning was that he believed andre to hold the less important core or that DC was not town, both of which could be just lying? but his scumreads do subscribe to that, yes.

May dc never miss another eod. Unless its w3 or dc is innocent I think the game is pretty much mechanically solved now.

and here we are, where it's not mechanically solved.

It is from his perspective if he is town.
Nothing in this game mechanically confirms any of the three of us as town or mafia. This is scumhunting, not auto win/loss. What about if he's mafia?

As I said, the game took a set course as soon as we all agreed to follow TorB's plan. As last game showed, being aware of someone possibly being the mafia achieves nothing if we do not vote on them. We should make a concensus whether we suspect Kae or TorB to be mafia (strongly enough that we actually vote on them!), and if not, put them off the table. I think if we have a deep wolf, it is Kae and not TorB. TorB did too many things, but I can't remember if Kae actually helped find a mafia, or he doubled down on a mafia that TorB found without him. I want an answer to this too from people who have good memory of this, then I will make a final decision whether I will consider voting Kae or not - if I even live for the next day.

He never voted, though. Even his final reads did not suggest kaempfer13 to be below N.
It's important to note Sub's stance here, no? Did we ever get the answer about kae helping to hunt for mafia? The most he did was benefit town after you pointed out the seele/raiden interactions. His ability usage is, again, not towny nor scummy. Just what needed to happen at the time when DC/Andre were already scumread.

did kdz actually claim? i mean its obvious,but for some reason he wanted to keep it close to his chest

fishing for his role right before he was nightkilled; he died that night.

And? I shared his opinion that if he was going to die anyway, there was no reason left to hide it any longer. He did not die over his useless Sin Mal role, he died for being confirmed town.
What if he had used it on one of the Raidens? That could present some issues, unless the Seele!Raiden doesn't carry over to Sin Mal.

Tbh, I'm not sure whether you flipping town would actually make me reconsider my poe. Probably not (well, obv it wouldnt be you, but i would probably just continue with the least towny remaining person, w3 before coffee and everyone else is essentially confirmed town to me assuming the plan  goes through). If I  seem phoned in, its because so long as town doesnt do anything silly and there is no actual case on me other than " if it aint anyone else ot has be you duh" i think  this is guaranteed to result in a town victory, so thats why im not really trying very hard anymore.

and this leads me to the end of my post; here, he's basically saying "i don't want to put in effort to solve as i think this is a free win for me." he assumed that everyone else alive universally scumread me more than him and so that was him coasting for the rest of the game.

I feel like it's NAI, unless he wanted really badly to scum read me.
You don't think it's not remotely scummy to not try anymore, even if you both scumread me? It just reeks of a staunchy overconfidence that aligns with the hubris of a scum who thinks they've won. Is that not scummy to you?

throughout the game, kae has tried solving and all of his reads that were on his own volition were incorrect, along with saving dc multiple times and bussing when the maf were essentially already found. you say that he tried to solve more than me, but if your idea of solving is that he outed more reads, does that clear him more than me? with his ability, he could have purposefully omitted usages and hidden his core usages with core of reason. i assume that he just got multiple unlucky hits with it if that's what happened, as there is no correlation past the first nightkill with positive and important targets getting killed based off of nothing.

DC Day 1 was barely even being scum read, half the wagon just joined a top wagon for a lynch. Town read on andre was shared with me and NAI. And the first nightkill was ironically confirmed not attributed to kaempfer13. I don't think he himself was ever even a target of his own ability, so he does not even need to hide anything in his reveals. The crucial part being the confusion on whom used abilities after claims due to Raiden Mei interfering. As mafia, he would not be confused or fake it.
The idea behind the hiding core usage is that with his ability, it makes him much easier to not need to claim his more-than-one ability usage. Clearly he wouldn't want to falsely claim someone else using cores if he didn't need to, and his ability never revealed anyone specific using cores, let alone me if he is assuming I am mafia (he is). Is that a coincidence? Bad luck? Seems to be just about as bad of luck as a kill on Link might be. And why would he not fake confusion as mafia? That makes no sense to me. It's trying to derpclear if he's going that way, and is as valid a strategy as not.

Also, how do you mean interesting cop interaction? The me saying i would protect him? that’s just a roleswap that i thought we were both taking part in because i knew that my role as cecilia was less valuable than a doc.

It's interesting you read anything into it to begin with, or that you think there are two soft claims from Link. The role reveal came as a complete surprise to me.
It's important to note because of, as i mentioned earlier, kae's self proclaimed "affinity for slips". I want to repeat that if he was so vehement about moe's slip, AND link died as the first nightkill after these posts, the way kae found his role if shock redirected a core onto himself is through these softs:

Kae - elements mafia 49. Might have to dig it out, i don't remember if that lives in the usual place for old games here it not.

Rob, that was a scrubbed game that we played literally half a decade ago. Don't try to read off of it.

kae, I'd like you to explicitly rule out Raiden as rob mentioned the possibility. Obviously, we don't know the exact wording in your PM.

That confirms there is Rita who also likes to play ballsy. Maybe too ballsy for town? If we end up finding out a more cautious player is Rita it would hint at scum/scum with an information role such as Cocolia. But there's s big margin of error here.

We also know Durandal is in the game, yay, and this also confirms Oa for me, unless someone speaks up in the next few hours. Take good care of him next night.


EBWOP, soft-confirming www3's roll. :/

I soft counterclaim your soft confirm.

I'm in a bit of a bind here, I have this really ominous feeling I can already derive Durandals identity based on public information... I can only pray it's WIFOM from mafia's perspective, but if Durandal really is whom I suspect, they're doing a terrible job of keeping quiet about it.

My bad, I'll try to be more subtle next time.

[Coffeeditto]

and now, upon seeing that he is having suspicion cast upon him, he chooses to condense and not address my desire for him to bring up counterpoints on me. here we have arrived.

[kaempfer13]

because you are wasting our time, I announced I would do this unless you put in major effort, but while you put a lot of text out i dont think you have your heart in it. I can easily poke at the weaknesses in your arguments, and I find your explannations for those points were I did so very weak. Anyway even if you're town you are voting the wrong person, so the chance is absolutely 0 that a scum that is not you is getting voted up today as we are tunneling each other, so obv I dont want to deal with this anymore.

[Coffeeditto]

because you are wasting our time, I announced I would do this unless you put in major effort, but while you put a lot of text out i dont think you have your heart in it. I can easily poke at the weaknesses in your arguments, and I find your explannations for those points were I did so very weak. Anyway even if you're town you are voting the wrong person, so the chance is absolutely 0 that a scum that is not you is getting voted up today as we are tunneling each other, so obv I dont want to deal with this anymore.

okay. hold on. i'm not wasting anyone's time if the game wasn't going to go on longer than the minimum 6 more hours, so don't say that. can you point out why my points are weak, or point the weaknesses out instead of just giving no effort and saying that they exist? if you don't care about the game don't play it, and if you don't want to play don't complain about time being wasted.

[kaempfer13]

Now that I'm on laptop instead of phone, lets add my thoughts on each point (except for a few vague ones where I have nothing to add, or that I addressed earlier):

Rita Rossweisse targeted me. I'm not sure what to make of it wrt ritas alignement, but i dont like it. I was a little surprised to learn that even though im forced to target her, i still have no idea who she is. Seems to be some kind of impressive mindcontrol ability.

This is wifom trying to indicate that he doesn't have the core, but still voicing his annoyance because being redirected onto shock with his core doesn't yield positive results.

This is just as true for his Frederica Tesla ability as town, which he has already stated at some point after his reveal.
Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?
Yep, poe. Unlike you said, I didnt particularly scumread you until now as pretty much everyone other than torb ofc acted way scummier. But compared to torb who probably is the sole reason this wasnt a clean sweep for scum in the first place, its just impossible to tr the other remaining person. i really thought this game would end 5 days ago, but we're still here.
Anyway what does that even have to do with the quote?

dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - Linkcat, PlayerOa, kamepfer13

I don't know how much I can stress that he wanted to try and 'flip a wagon' onto ian when there were 2 minutes left in the voting timer. He posted after link had forced a nl and chose not to break the tie, which he counters by saying that he was going to in the very short amount of time left. I can't trust that.

He literally removed his vote earlier when he became a viable wagon, invalid argument.
But the point is he chose not to hammer, and instead remained out of the two wagons when he could have accidentally forced a NL because of it. The bronya avoiding was fine and all, but the lack of a decision to push one of the wagons at day end is interesting and scummy to me.
Sigh, you are both wrong about my reasoning here, which someone that read the thread recently should remmember. my unvote was to prevent a no lynch from happening and I scumread ian more than the others.

oops, got called for dinner, may continue this later, though id rather not (but probably will as you would just continue being wrong about me otherwise). be back in an hour or so probably.

[Coffeeditto]

Now that I'm on laptop instead of phone, lets add my thoughts on each point (except for a few vague ones where I have nothing to add, or that I addressed earlier):

Rita Rossweisse targeted me. I'm not sure what to make of it wrt ritas alignement, but i dont like it. I was a little surprised to learn that even though im forced to target her, i still have no idea who she is. Seems to be some kind of impressive mindcontrol ability.

This is wifom trying to indicate that he doesn't have the core, but still voicing his annoyance because being redirected onto shock with his core doesn't yield positive results.

This is just as true for his Frederica Tesla ability as town, which he has already stated at some point after his reveal.
Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?
Yep, poe. Unlike you said, I didnt particularly scumread you until now as pretty much everyone other than torb ofc acted way scummier. But compared to torb who probably is the sole reason this wasnt a clean sweep for scum in the first place, its just impossible to tr the other remaining person. i really thought this game would end 5 days ago, but we're still here.
Anyway what does that even have to do with the quote?

dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - Linkcat, PlayerOa, kamepfer13

I don't know how much I can stress that he wanted to try and 'flip a wagon' onto ian when there were 2 minutes left in the voting timer. He posted after link had forced a nl and chose not to break the tie, which he counters by saying that he was going to in the very short amount of time left. I can't trust that.

He literally removed his vote earlier when he became a viable wagon, invalid argument.
But the point is he chose not to hammer, and instead remained out of the two wagons when he could have accidentally forced a NL because of it. The bronya avoiding was fine and all, but the lack of a decision to push one of the wagons at day end is interesting and scummy to me.
Sigh, you are both wrong about my reasoning here, which someone that read the thread recently should remmember. my unvote was to prevent a no lynch from happening and I scumread ian more than the others.

oops, got called for dinner, may continue this later, though id rather not (but probably will as you would just continue being wrong about me otherwise). be back in an hour or so probably.

The quote in the first part was just a place for me to toss in the question, and the tesla part was an admittal of that being NAI, like my cecilia vig.

I read the thread recently and your unvote was not in the last period of time where, yesterday or the day before, you said that you would have hammered to steer away from a no lynch. your reasoning right here contradicts what you said you would have done back then; you were active when link forced a no lynch and you obligated torb to hammer onto shock which took away from the DC train and added to the shock train, further strengthening the prevention of a town blitz onto your partner. Scumread ian or not, your removal of a vote earlier in that day is not preventing a NL from happening.

[Coffeeditto]

Now that I'm on laptop instead of phone, lets add my thoughts on each point (except for a few vague ones where I have nothing to add, or that I addressed earlier):

Rita Rossweisse targeted me. I'm not sure what to make of it wrt ritas alignement, but i dont like it. I was a little surprised to learn that even though im forced to target her, i still have no idea who she is. Seems to be some kind of impressive mindcontrol ability.

This is wifom trying to indicate that he doesn't have the core, but still voicing his annoyance because being redirected onto shock with his core doesn't yield positive results.

This is just as true for his Frederica Tesla ability as town, which he has already stated at some point after his reveal.
Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?
Yep, poe. Unlike you said, I didnt particularly scumread you until now as pretty much everyone other than torb ofc acted way scummier. But compared to torb who probably is the sole reason this wasnt a clean sweep for scum in the first place, its just impossible to tr the other remaining person. i really thought this game would end 5 days ago, but we're still here.
Anyway what does that even have to do with the quote?

dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - Linkcat, PlayerOa, kamepfer13

I don't know how much I can stress that he wanted to try and 'flip a wagon' onto ian when there were 2 minutes left in the voting timer. He posted after link had forced a nl and chose not to break the tie, which he counters by saying that he was going to in the very short amount of time left. I can't trust that.

He literally removed his vote earlier when he became a viable wagon, invalid argument.
But the point is he chose not to hammer, and instead remained out of the two wagons when he could have accidentally forced a NL because of it. The bronya avoiding was fine and all, but the lack of a decision to push one of the wagons at day end is interesting and scummy to me.
Sigh, you are both wrong about my reasoning here, which someone that read the thread recently should remmember. my unvote was to prevent a no lynch from happening and I scumread ian more than the others.

oops, got called for dinner, may continue this later, though id rather not (but probably will as you would just continue being wrong about me otherwise). be back in an hour or so probably.

The quote in the first part was just a place for me to toss in the question, and the tesla part was an admittal of that being NAI, like my cecilia vig.

I read the thread recently and your unvote was not in the last period of time where, yesterday or the day before, you said that you would have hammered to steer away from a no lynch. your reasoning right here contradicts what you said you would have done back then; you were active when link forced a no lynch and you obligated torb to hammer onto shock which took away from the DC train and added to the shock train, further strengthening the prevention of a town blitz onto your partner. Scumread ian or not, your removal of a vote earlier in that day is not preventing a NL from happening.

ebwop - fixed formatting

[TheonlyrealBeef]

I haven't read the last few posts, but this took a while to compose.

Then it's valid for both directions, like my cecilia vig. That reminds me, what's the reason we all scumread me? PoE?

There are several reasons that I have pointed out so far. If you want to sum it up in generic points:

• First and foremost: lack of conviction. Your actions should be based on YOUR belief on what YOU think is bets for town, as well as taking responsibility for those actions and explaining why you believe it was in town's best interests. I have completely missed this the entire game. That was also my point on Cal/andre that you pointed out. Same for targeting people in general after the dawn kill. You should do these things because you believe them to be the right thing, not because some vague concept of town consensus when there are only 2-3 people engaged in that discussion. That is NOT consensus. Lack of conviction was also when you vigged dawn: "that's what rob did as town, so it's okay" is a terrible reason. Unless you understand and agree with the underlying reason for this and use that to explain why you did it, it sounds more like a lame excuse to kill some town.
• Insistence on talking about scum Raidens early game, yet somehow never worried your targeting would be affected. All your ability uses hit their marks. I know the latter can simply be luck, or even strategy from scum since they have no reason to interfere with town dying, but it's still nagging my mind.
• Ironically, the reason people initially town read you, the very same reason Linkcat told people not to town read me for, is talking mechanics. It's why I considered rob a hypocrite for putting both of us as town reads. I never mentioned this before, since before N3, this could have had some major backfire to point out.
• I find kaempfer13 to be more likely town.
• There are several now-dead town that scum read you when my plan for confirming ian was set into motion, they all agreed with this plan knowing you could not escape being lynched as mafia as long as it was followed. Both me and kaempfer13 insisted that if someone wanted to make a case on us, they should do it then and there before the plan is set in motion to eliminate everyone else. You silently agreed with this plan by vigging Cal and made no attempts to scum read either of us until the very end. Deviating from lynching you, would feel like a betrayal to all the dead town that entrusted me to follow the laid out plan.

But the point is he chose not to hammer, and instead remained out of the two wagons when he could have accidentally forced a NL because of it. The bronya avoiding was fine and all, but the lack of a decision to push one of the wagons at day end is interesting and scummy to me.

it certainly wasn't the best vote, that's all I can say on it.

In the long run, he was the person who pushed the counterwagon, yes, but there was no way that DC would have lived unless someone on the DC wagon flipped (you) or no one from outside the wagon flipped onto him. It looks to me like at that point our options were you, me, Link, Sub, and kae.

Except kaempfer13 had no reason to prefer either lynch, it seems. That's all there really is to say on that from my perspective.

saying i'm the lest mechanically towny here.

That probably says more about how likely I am to be town, leaving you to be scum.
what

Does removing the rest of the quote better emphasize how that makes you less mechanically town than me?

Consistency is an easy facade for scummy behavior.

People being themselves is NAI from my point of view.

You are in fact right in thinking that at that point that long ago, I expected kae to be in a 3way with you and I and I would be forced to thunderdome with him and use that as one of my arguments. No, I'm pointing out the correlation here, and that out of the two kae chose cal over DC. It's consistent with his views, but does that make it less notable?

What. See first point on why I think you are scum, this is just you abandoning the responsibility of not targeting scum.

Nothing in this game mechanically confirms any of the three of us as town or mafia. This is scumhunting, not auto win/loss. What about if he's mafia?

Then he could still say this. "What about if he's mafia?" is a question we've heard all throughout the last few days. It's a risk we all accepted by accepting this course of action.

It's important to note Sub's stance here, no? Did we ever get the answer about kae helping to hunt for mafia? The most he did was benefit town after you pointed out the seele/raiden interactions. His ability usage is, again, not towny nor scummy. Just what needed to happen at the time when DC/Andre were already scumread.

My answer was that I would probably have ended up lynching both after moes reveal, regardless of kaempfer13s statements. Ironically, Subs earlier stance was that the person initiating a mass role-claim is almost always town (kaempfer13). Perhaps he saw it as me initiating a mass role claim, but my intention was only ever to hard claim my own role. It could even be that that was the point he was trying to drive across then all along, with me not intentionally initiating the role claim seeming even townier, who knows.

What if he had used it on one of the Raidens? That could present some issues, unless the Seele!Raiden doesn't carry over to Sin Mal.

kdz did in fact target andretimpa before he got lynched, but DC rerouted it to me. Core of binding made it impossible to use it before DC got lynched the day after. This was not clear at the time kaempfer13 posted this, however. But kdz would still have been defenseless, since Raiden cannot self-target.

You don't think it's not remotely scummy to not try anymore, even if you both scumread me? It just reeks of a staunchy overconfidence that aligns with the hubris of a scum who thinks they've won. Is that not scummy to you?

Make of it what you will, I guess.

And why would he not fake confusion as mafia? That makes no sense to me. It's trying to derpclear if he's going that way, and is as valid a strategy as not.

Right. So you gotta read the posts and see if the confusion makes sense and is genuine. For example, Subs "derpclear" on how many mafia were in the game? DENIED. That should have been super obvious.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Unvoting is indeed a terrible way to break a 3-way tie, though.