I would not hard claim straight away if i was a cop and found mafia. Unless its in latter stages of mafia.
I guess it depends on how early one expects mafia to find out about the cop. If cop takes info to the grave, that would be a shame. Mafia Emma Planck could identify whom the cop is N0.
This is an interesting thing right for Emma to say right away, especially now that we know TorB is Emma. However, it clears him more than not because he's true in saying that he could have found moe's Dura way earlier than when he died. I doubt it's a wifom.
Raiden mei can make durandal semiimmortal while both live and raiden knows who durandal is (provided noone randomly kills the other person, raiden lives and of course this is only good if both exist and are town)
I could read this as baiting out an early dura claim (seeing as how maf!kae would have known that Raiden+Seele/Raiden are maf).
This plan falls apart fairly quickly even if all assumptions apply, when scum has chain lightning, so I wouldnt start with this plan earlier than necessary
..and then this right afterwards, either covering tracks or towny. I read it as more towny than not? I think?
Both can be Herrscher.
As I mentioned before, subtle things. Like not forcing Durandal to counterclaim if someone thinks a fake Durandal claim will save them from getting lynched, but having Emma Planck do it. If you need to choose between lynching one of two people of unknown alignment, of which one has a role that is really useful to town if they are town, you choose the other.
There's also some theorycrafting I've done: if Emma Planck finds someone's role, and Theresa determines that person's ability type and it doesn't match with what their role is, they're confirmed Herrscher. It can't confirm someone as town, but it can confirm if they have a Honkai core.
That's basically what I was saying on Theresa. You do not even need Emma Planck for this. As long as people are truthful about their role claims, anyone that has claimed will be a viable target. That's one of the reasons I'm being so insistent on truthful role claims.
on Emma - I was wondering what made you change from this original plan of targetting Fu Hua n2. It seems kind of oddly specific that you might aim in Raiden, unless you had considered him the better doc role or something similar. It makes sense in saying that raiden is more useful for both alignments, but still worth hearing an explanation for.
on Theresa - I think this might have been a towny self-preservation, but it could also be encouraging others to out their true roles to weed out power roles. Townread more than not.
Core of Lightning
Raiden
Himeko
Yae
Lieserl
^ Mafia Cores/Roles that may potentially be a problem
- Yae can block it without making it easy to figure out it was Yae.
It seems odd to me that a mafia!submachine would out this about themselves.
We can’t rely on the honesty of others claiming their roles. Mafia have 5 roles to potentially hide in, and this method can confirm someone as mafia if their ability type differs from that of their role. There’s no reason not to
On phone to say that I disagree. 18 players, 20 roles, and I was recently reminded that roles are not duplicated. Two roles are unused in the game, and unless mafia knows what those two roles are, they will high chance claim an already existing role. It leads to a 50-50 where one is mafia and the other is town. I like those odds.
Mafia never needed to counterclaim here, and the possibility of either an early Theresa snipe, especially if Sub is holding the Core of Reason, was pretty great. However, between sub's take and TorB's, TorB's was more sound.
how could important power roles ever hide? if someone is forcing a player who rolled durandal to claim, how are we to hide them in other roles? also, am i understanding you correctly that you think we don’t need the emma confirmation? what happens in the event that theresa rolled maf and lies to get someone lynched? they could blame it on the person lying about their role.
It's not like everyone needs to claim. In fact, the reason people shouldn't claim too early is for this very purpose. You don't need to lie for this.
If someone gets lynched as the role they claimed (role is revealed on death), we have just outed a mafia Theresa, it's a major victory from my point of view.
Yes, but why would a mafia Theresa do that besides to get a 1:1 trade? Might have been baiting out Theresa here.
The mafia know 3 of their roles, and there’s a 2/17 chance that they claim a role not taken. It’s reasonably possible that they’ll claim a role already taken, but they could also roleswap in each other’s roles, and what if someone claims an important role like hua, durandal or emma? we lynch in ccs and possible mislynch a power role to the greater detriment of the town.
First of all, why would they ever swap their claimed roles? Mafia swapping claims with other mafia has zero benefit and hurts them more than anything else.
And if they claim an important role, it will still be a 50-50, and no role is so important that I wouldn't trade them in for a guaranteed mafia kill. Not to mention that if we lynch mafia from the 50-50, we not only kill a mafia but also soft-confirm a town.
Townread this, though.
By the way, the scenario I'm talking about is a late-game mass roleclaim. Nothing that is relevant right now.
Well, here we are.
Raiden Mei does not require coordination, quite the opposite. By targeting someone to be protected and an unwitting victim, all kill abilities will affect the unwitting victim instead of the one being protected. As soon as you coordinate whom the second target is, mafia can simply target them. Raiden Mei is an ER ability, too, so can indefinitely protect someone as long as there is a scapegoat, Raiden Mei lives and binding chains does not take effect. Whether or not Fu Hua helps out and protects the scapegoat (by targeting the power role) is irrelevant in saving the power role.
This seems like it's important but I can't put a read on it, because Raiden could just force nightkills through anyway. Might be WIFOM I guess? How do you feel about this quote now, TorB?
Frederica Tesla Radio Wave (ER) Target any number of players. You learn how many abilities those players used tonight, in total. You can’t target yourself. (Includes Honkai Core abilities. You don’t learn the ability name or target. Players can use more than one ability each night.)
rita did not use a honkai core tonight, if I am this role
It's kind of towny to out this like this, and not to just try and push on a town Rita for no reason knowing they were town. I think maf!kae would push harder to get rid of someone potentially messing with scum's ability usage.
dawn to dusk (2) - TheonlyrealBeef, rob77dp
moehrpi(1) kaempfer13
based on potential slip.
i dont know how you can fuck up so bad, but i cant think of a reason for town!moe to say that either.
Weird reasoning, weird vote, weird.
Kae - elements mafia 49. Might have to dig it out, i don't remember if that lives in the usual place for old games here it not.
Rob, that was a scrubbed game that we played literally half a decade ago. Don't try to read off of it.
kae, I'd like you to explicitly rule out Raiden as rob mentioned the possibility. Obviously, we don't know the exact wording in your PM.
That confirms there is Rita who also likes to play ballsy. Maybe too ballsy for town? If we end up finding out a more cautious player is Rita it would hint at scum/scum with an information role such as Cocolia. But there's s big margin of error here.
We also know Durandal is in the game, yay, and this also confirms Oa for me, unless someone speaks up in the next few hours. Take good care of him next night.
EBWOP, soft-confirming www3's roll. :/
I soft counterclaim your soft confirm.
Wait a second. It's not important any more, but check out these breadcrumbs.
while it does sound like a move i would do, i did not target oa nor Kaempf.
This is basically hard claim not Rita or Durandal. There is no reason to look for Rita with info roles, since it's almost certainly shock at this point.
Looking back, I townread this. maf!TorB would have known the existence of a maf!Raiden and dura getting redirected N1.
I cant fathom how you cant see that moe essentially claimed to have knowledge on the scum team or being scum (which means he also has knowledge on the scumteam duh) with his slip.
Why would a mafia ever out having knowledge on who the mafia are? And since he did have knowledge on the team, why would you want to lynch him for it risking lynching a power role?
What happened to not insulting mafia's intelligence? Soft confirming yourself as mafia is the epitome of stupidity. How about we leave it at confirming the rolls themselves and not the implied meaning behind it?
@kae: What he said.
well that one is obviously a joke and linkcat is fairly well known to troll every now and then. i didnt really see moehrpi as joking there
???
EBWOP actually triggering core of reason is even better than i thought as rita, as they dont even learn who that ability belongs to
This is a fair point. If kae is the last mafia, and has core of reason, would he not have known who Rita was? Unless he didn't use it n1 (dumb) or wanted to dumbtell not knowing, which makes sense as well.
I disagree with Rita usage and think shock is just as "confirmed town" as rob was "confirmed mafia" last mafia, regardless of role. Just because a move is bad as scum, it does not mean it is good as/for town or that you are town. This does not mean I think Rita is scum for it, either. The people currently lynch voting shock do not seem to be voting him on the basis of believing he is scum either.
I'm still interested in lynching mafia, though. Low content posters are harder to read, so mafia likes hiding among them. shock's last post was anything but low content. Sticking with current lynch vote for now, but it's liable to change depending on how the rest of the day develops. kdz and Cal currently stand out as potential lynch targets for me.
Townread this.
I mean, if shock is rita and using his ability willynilly he will die sooner or later. Which means we dont have to lynch him now. It's kind of the perfect role for him 
. additionally a town!lieserl may be able to find out if he attracted a honkai core.
I townread this. Like I said earlier, kae would want a town!rita lynched.
I'd like to see more lynch votes, the current tally is asking for end of day madness.
Also, I mulled over this post last night and some things were bothering me.
Torb's "logical" plan for each role
It was never meant to be a dictate on what to do, but rather a starting point for a discussion. Speaking of:
hide behind Torb's plan and Rob/Linkcat's talking and get slight town reads from everyone?
Only agreeing with me is literally the least effort next to not posting one could put in. I appreciated the discussions with people disagreeing with me, and they're the actual town leans here from my point of view. I'm not omniscient, a saint or confirmed town, so only mafia has no reason to speak up against me when disagreeing with me. Simply disagreeing with me but staying silent about it N0 -like you did- is my least favorite response to that post.
This strikes me as odd somehow. Would love input. I can't wrap my head around why it feels odd right now.
Indeed ian, you havent said anything at all that either isnt just common sense (yh shock no lynch is bad, get that in your brain already) or scumreads based on stuff that isnt ai at all. I've come to get used to seeing that from you, but if we're going to lynch the most worthless player today it may well be you.
Except the consensus was that Calindu was getting lynched at that point. I townread this for trying to maneuver a vote off of the consensus at the time.
I haven't really managed to form a scumread about anyone yet, though there are some people I slightly townread, mainly kae, TorB, Oa and shock.
kae - Seems to be making constant plans and tries to read players, I don't think he would accuse moe that hard if he were mafia
TorB - I haven't seen him play as mafia yet, but his play seems consistent to the previous mafias
Oa - This is mainly because of the Durandal check on him, though it might be completely wrong, really
shock - I disagree with the no lynch plan, since I still believe in a lynch D1, but he argues it well and plays as usual
Fair post from Calindu. Sure, it doesn't give much, but I share his views on his four townreads, and putting out FOUR townreads is more solving than what the average player has done in this game.
So at the time, you believed that outing four reads based on nothing and that you agreed with wwas more towny than not? It seems like an unsubstantiated townread.
Oh right, Rita can't force a ability if it's on CD right?
Right.
You could still draw a kill role to yourself or an info role (though NAI, I guess, unless Theresa), while not drawing any ability is true for enough abilities to not be substantial evidence, so I think Rita N1 is not particularly good as scum. Better than N0, I suppose.
I townread this interaction, doesn't seem forced.
I interpreted a post that simply said "ok" as a slip once and raved about it all game and scum wouldnt let me lynch the dude (who was town while i was innocent child). I'm extremely sensitive when it comes to slips and I didnt see a jokey tone in moe's post. But yh, i'll drop the issue I should have learned from that experience after all.
While mature of you to back off, I don't believe that pushing that hard on a slip that is more likely to hit a power role than a scum was great. Even if it's not unusual for you to do, it's not towny.
andretimpa
I think he's posting much more than last time, even if much of it is quite short and rule questions. Maybe the tiniest townlean. n+
---
Coffeeditto
He's posting. v
kae, explain this. Why did you heavily townread me for this and n+ read andre for it?
robs progression on coffee just doesnt make sense. First he scumreads him for activity (which is the opposite of basic logic and the phantom memory he had has no grounds in reality, which may or may not mean that its completely made up), then townreads him for it when his memory was jogged (as he puts him in townleans with no other reason given than his initial read being wrong and coffee-activity=good), then claims activity is not a tell for coffee at all, but then keeps his townread on him anyway, while buddying him.
Yes, i still havent gotten over this.
Other rob related things: - his mechanics-talk is fine (pretty good) really, but in case of rob i wouldnt expect anything else really.
as he noted himself, his readlist developed to fit the wagons that were forming. it is indeed too consensy and him wanting to vote with certain other people (oa) further drives this home, passing responsibility for a misslynch to someone else.
Kae, I just wanted to say you make some of the weirdest pushes for the weirdest reasonings.
I can find nothing unusual about dc either. he was voted with almost no reasons given at all, so his memeresponse was fitting for the situation, no?
I do like his thoughts about always lynching, but as I said before this should really just be common sense and its unfortunate that for certain other people its apparently not.
There was some explicit reasoning stated on multiple peoples' parts. Mine being his reaction and interaction with Link, and others about his breadposting.
moehrpi n+/w
This may come as a surprise, but in case his 'slip' was really just an overly dry delivered joke, i actually find his content consistently towny otherwise.
Flippy floppy reads, and if you thought he was so towny you shouldn't have pushed him so hard?
I can't be around any longer so I'm just going to say this. You all argue that no lynch is bad because lynching is how town wins, and even if you lynch a town you gain valuable information. Well everyone seems to be voting me just because. Tell me what info you get if I get lynched? Are you going to vote out one of the players who voted me next? Somehow I doubt that.
I'm not going to random vote and cause others to panic and random vote also when there's literally no mechanical information out there yet since no one has really revealed anything. So I'm going to keep voting no lynch, and hopefully in roughly 5 games, like I said, you're realize the power that no lynch actually holds for town.
Lastly, you may be surprised what little information you actually do learn when I flip. Hopefully you like surprises. I sure do.
Sincerely,
Mafia Rita
Shock, I'm taking the risk to believe that you are town. It seems there is only a set amount of players who are voting on you, and only as a scapegoat option. I heard at least one other people say too that he believed you would be town. Does that not give you some hope to make you stay and figure out a lynch target other than No Lynch?
Townread this for the same reason as I townread kae earlier: if Sub was maf, it would be in his best interest to get Rita gone asap.
@Kae: Why is dawn above 6 other people on the usefulness scale? He's still sitting on only 2 posts and he is the only person not voting.
This is taking into consideration that we dont need to lynch him to kill him, if we instead agree that that role (forgot the name) does the job instead
More town deaths for maf=easier to win?
dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (4) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (2) - PlayerOa, moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (2) - TheonlyrealBeef, andretimpa
shockcannon (5) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, Linkcat, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (1) - kaempfer13
I don't see www happening, hmm. After all this, I really hope you are at least a Durandal, www. Switching to DC.
Lynching shock without an in-this-game reason seems bad.
dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (6) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, PlayerOa, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (5) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, Linkcat, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (1) - kaempfer13
These last minute votes onto DC are pretty towny, more so to TorB for being willing to hammer his maf partner if they are a team.
Think about it. With shock in the game, there's effectively 4 mafia. If we lynch shock we're guaranteed to at least go down to 3. But if he actually is mafia, then we've effectively gone from 4 to 2, killing half the team with one lynch. That's pretty high EV, I see no flaw in my math.
(((And this was the point where Sub realized that this game only has 3 mafia in it.....)))
d e r p c l e a r
I'm open to move to a dawn wagon.
Maybe significant after seeing the DC train pick up traction?
dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, PlayerOa
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (3) - kaempfer13, Linkcat, TheonlyrealBeef
I can entertain some wagonomics at the very least, this doesn't change much, yet.
Same as above, but more towny than not.
welp, looks like my placeholdervote might end up the lynch. Oh well, i guess i prefer him over the other options rn.
hmm
dawn to dusk (1) - killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals (5) - Calindu, Coffeeditto, rob77dp, Submachine, TheonlyrealBeef
No Lynch (1) - shockcannon
MasterWalks (1) - moehrpi
worldwideweb3 (1) - andretimpa
shockcannon (4) - Naii_the_Baf, DoubleCapitals, MasterWalks, iancudorinmarian
Submachine(1) - worldwideweb3
iancudorinmarian (2) - Linkcat, PlayerOa
Breaking ties.
Still townreading this.
w3 still defending dc at this point gives me a slight townlean on him
Townleaning w3 for defending your possible partner.
2mins hard limit!!!
You said this after Link had forced the tie, and didn't hammer on shock or DC even knowing there was a tie. This reeks to me.
I don’t like this lynch at all
Agreed.
Nice.
Okay, that's the first 50 which consisted of N0 and D1. I will be doing the next 50 and the last 50 before day ends, I believe. I would like to encourage someone to do the same for me and my posts, as commentating on my own posts seems kind of biased.
Poll
