Elements Mafia 74 - by skyironsword

[worldwideweb3]

Squeezing in a reads list update here too:

vv
moe

v
coffee
TorB

n+
Oa
Sub
kdz

n
Cal
ian
Link

n-
timpa
MW
d2d

w
kae
DC
www3

[kaempfer13]

Um, kae I do not recall ever visiting that link before... so if you shared it last game I ignored it (sorry if so, given you recall I asked for it... don't remember doing that though myself).

Also, the game that actually completed you got vigi shot by town-vig as scum... while being scum-read based on you behaving differently that you had in viewable town games. Which is basically wha tI"m doing here. So the way I see it I have a scum-lean on you this game for something that you were scum-read for in a prior game where you were scum.

What am I missing though? Because I read your post as being so self-assured that you sharing your scum game here would help me want to question a scum-read of you this game... but it doesn't??

Spoiler for Hidden:

robs progression on coffee just doesnt make sense. First he scumreads him for activity (which is the opposite of basic logic and the phantom memory he had has no grounds in reality, which may or may not mean that its completely made up), then townreads him for it when his memory was jogged (as he puts him in townleans with no other reason given than his initial read being wrong and coffee-activity=good), then claims activity is not a tell for coffee at all, but then keeps his townread on him anyway, while buddying him.

Yes, i still havent gotten over this.

Other rob related things: - his mechanics-talk is fine (pretty good) really, but in case of rob i wouldnt expect anything else really.
as he noted himself, his readlist developed to fit the wagons that were forming. it is indeed too consensy and him wanting to vote with certain other people (oa) further drives this home, passing responsibility for a misslynch to someone else.

My progression is fine. While it may be 'flawed' as in I don't have the answers at the start, but you are somewhat mischaracterizing it. I scumread him suddenly being active and different in a major way from last game wehre he was town (as in, he posted stuff this game... so I thought a variation in playstyle was something to scumlean THAT EARLY IN THE GAME when info is scarce) - and it was based on a faulty memory I had. Yes I corrected and adjusted my read when proper context and history was shown to me. I try to avoid activity tells on ANYONE when there is not a clear and hardline set of evicence to support it which does not exist for coffee - so yeah I rescinded any sort of postcount tell/read on coffee. I am not buddying him - I am finding that I have several times thought very similarly to him while trying to find some to work with a bit that I townread. It isn't foundless and I don't consider it buddying.

The fact that I was willing to try to get reads going so early is towny. The fact I was willing to adjust based on presented evidence and rescinde a scumlean based on facts is towny. Is it WIFOM for me to point this out? Sure, but sheesh kae that's a pretty poor set of reasoning as I see it.

I hate mechanics talk - but in a game so HEAVILY reliant on understanding and discussing roles like this one is I find myself somewhat forced into discussing mechanics. FYI - mafia tend to love discussing mechanics.

My readlist was developing BEFORE they were all wagons - I simply realized it was aligning and thought it was very unlikely I would have them all pegged rightly and that the thread would too - so I commented on it.

I didn't pass any responsibility and it is weird you characterize my voting scumreads of mine as "misslynch" responsibility passing - I see them as good lynches and only once a player flips is it even possible for me to know if right or not.


Kae - your attempt to scumread me is as shaky as I've commented before about some of your reads. I think I asked this before / last game --- do you have a scum-game example to link us to for background / meta? You seem different than last game --- you have a ton of reads that strike me as faked, poor, or misguided in ways that feel forced which I do not remember getting sense of from you at all last game when you were town. I want to try to compare a most recent scum game of yours to last game (you were town) with this game so far. Please / thanks.

I already posted my only scumgame in the previous game. Kinda dissapointed you didnt even register that even though you already asked for it last time I thought. I suppose that doesnt matter for this game though.
Link: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/24094-Poisonous-Vigilantes-Re-Rand

Bonus: in the initial round I was town and another asshat scumread me for the exact same reason you did now.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/24079-Poisonous-Vigilantes-21er?p=3566885#post3566885

The lower effort version would have been to just not mention the people i arrived at n on anyway and you wouldnt have perceived it as odd at all, yet i shared why i arrived at ultimately not having strong feelings.



This post is also scumpinging me (sort of appeasy/defensive, also the attempt to get reads wasnt scummy, the resulting reads were), but I suppose I'm deep enough in the tunnel that i would scumread you for donating to charity (distracting from the relevant topic, maybe fighting a bad conscience).

Did you even actually read the game? Day2 i hardbussed a teammate, which left the evenvig as literally the only person to scumread me at that stage. I couldnt keep up with the thread at all, as i was more carefull about what i said and affected by tmi I barely managed any reads at all. Then when people rightfully voted me up, I hid behind an overly casual "Haha, Im in danger"-attittude to hide my lack of confidence.
If your metareads is a "find the differences"-game you should never scumread me here. At worst you should realize that there are differences to any game I played before and then actually start trying to read me based on what I actually do.

Also your durandal-questioning comes way too early. it kinda reminds me of how sub tried to sus mw last game (after mw outed ian), which I didnt find suspicious then, as sub always gets hung up on weird things and tbh mw's townplay is questionable, except its even less subtle.

[moehrpi]

Oa-

I get a weird feeling about your reads list... it omits the 4th through 8th (you're 9th and from there the cutline gets murkier) highest posters but you included a slight town lean (n+) on a 10-post player and a slight scum lean (n-) on a 14 poster, 17 poster, and 19 poster. I'm curious what background you can give as to this aspect of your list?

Also, your heavier town leans (v) are very brief and blaise thoughts when you then have more in-depth things about lower-post count and content players that get n-/+ treatment then dumping "the rest" as n (do you mean null or neutral)?
That's ironic considering your following reads list. But any update is appreciated. Still, I questioned - rather was wondering out loud - about your strong townread on me. Yet, you stay silent on the latest topic about me even though you regularly compare play across games. On a more general note I assume people not commenting means they are undecided / suspicious about it. This freaks me out a bit as I'd like to know where I stand but guess that's part of it.

I had such a strong townread on you I guess based mostly on the Durandal moderator SOD 1 statement to which no Durandal has claimed to have seen "red" on you. I'm a bit shaky on that townread now, but it seems so unlikely you aren't town given that Durandal pinged you without reporting... which could mean you are scum ONLY if Durandal is playing a dangerous (or poor, depends on perspective) game OR if Durandal is scum. I'll be frank --- given the amoutn of in-thread discussion where I think the general consensus is for Durandal to out any scum hits that the most likely of the scenarios where Oa is scum is scum Durandal. Which worries me a fair bit.
I also thought about claiming red peek at the end of the following night. Scum already knows they're hit, and it essentially saves the trouble to protect cop for one night. Most people have the ablility to be online EON. In the case that Oa is indeed scum it could be publicised later today. But I don't see Oa posting what he is as scum that's about to go down.
Wasn't it you who also mentioned way earlier that Raiden might have messed with Break of Dawn? Implying that cop's green peek might not actually be Oa? I find it hard to believe that mechanics could work that way. It clearly stated that Oa was hit. If Phantom Image was used Durandal simply targeted someone else and was redirected. You seem to throw a lot of shade at Oa. I like the idea not to rule out any possibility mechanically but you're that's a lot. I am sorry if that was not you, as I don't think I addressed this before and did not save the post. If it wasn't you please say so and I will dig it up as not to give a wrong picture.

All this said, it is still much more likely Durandal is town and so is Oa -- however from the read of Oa's list (as I outlined above) I'm softening my townread of Oa quite a bit.

INPUT PLEASE ON THIS --> Does it seem likely, as I believe it is, that a scum!Durandal would ping a teammate N0 to try to cover a teammate for a while? Perhaps even - as Oa (the N0 Durandal result) has done - request doctor attending next night to sus out the doc role?? Thinking that made more sense than once I've typed it out though...... 
I actually do see it working. You got to work with what you've got. Emma would be the only information role red that can hard-confirm scum?! All you needed to do was target plausible targets the following nights (2 targets are easy enough to find) to make it look like you're wasting the ability.

v
kaempfer - seems genuinely interested in solving
TorB - a lot of his thoughts allocate with mine

n+
dawn - going out early on calling out Cecilia gives slight town cred in my book. I believe his claim on not being Bronya, but if he turns out to be, it's looking real bad for him
moe - hard buddying me, which isn't even slightly controversial, but his posts seem genuine to me. Explains his MW vote on his trust on me, fair enough.
w3 - just like moe, he's playing exactly the way I'd expect town w3 to play. I'm not implying it's a difficult task, since it's not, but his play makes sense

n-
MW - I like they way he responded on the pressure, but I'm not convinced yet. Being on shock
Naii - getting weird vibes, although his confusion is likely legit, as I've felt just the way he has on earlier occasions. I don't like his reasoning on voting MW, although it might sound hypocrital as 1) I was on MW and 2) MW is a mere n- for me
ian - kinda had to stay at a pile bigger than his, so can't blame him on staying on shock, but the timing of his vote is not looking good to me. The post about "don't kill me as I'm OP in the endgame" without any more substance (he said it was a mashup of many factors) is kinda throwing me off.

The rest are standing at n. For now.

Piling up on shockcannon just because sHoCk Is ShOcK is a scummy move in my book and it's definitely influencing my readlist.

As a maf Durandal, it seems much safer to target town N0. This will make it much more likely to gain you town support by the time you claim, rather than having to out and rely on mafia buddies to save your hide. N4 seems like the most sensible night to try a fake mafia is town target to claim, by then maf Durandal can keep its credit long enough to win mafia the game on mislynches. If they live long enough to get to N6 without scum winning the game, they might even pull a town is maf fake claim target.
I believe Durandal claim on its own is enough to save you form the gallows. Theresa can check Durandal/their claims N3 or later if they haven't died until then. I am still anxious about finding dead cop tomorrow. Without Theresa it gets nasty, though. For now I don't really want to entertain that thoguht but it's there somewhere.

Durandal being mafia is not very likely (3/17), but you never know. More importantly: if neither Oa nor Durandal are NK-ed for a few nights in a row, it may be worth it for town to start growing suspicious of Durandal. But it just feels too early right now.

(Or do we, TorB? I've not picked up the clues you seem to have)

That's good. I may elaborate on this at some later point along with providing a read list, but doing so at this point in time will not help town from my point of view. If you think that's scummy of me, you can always try to force an early reveal with lynch votes next day. Your choice.

Not scummy at all. Night isn't the time for it at all. Unless you really feel cop gave himself away already. But this would put you in a very rough position.

Funny how if you don't have the exact same number of posts as in the previous mafia or if you happen to have a different opinion than you had 20 mafias ago, it means you changed your gameplay because you're scum.

If anything, we should be looking at people that are actually trying too hard to keep the same gameplay.

I second this sentiment. ian seems uncannily casual/disinterested as usual.


Also, www3's posts become better.

[moehrpi]

I'm stating this now, for the record, because at this point I'm questioning whether a hard claim combined with Raiden Mei/Fu Hua may be a safer bet than pretending I did not see it and pray mafia either misses it or I am wrong.

I have a good idea about who you mean but don't believe that's the case. However, just mentioning it is a good play. Not sure how intentional this was but this cements my town read on you.

[moehrpi]

I tried to compile a reads list, yeah...

vv
Oa

honorary v
shock

v
TorB
coffee

n+
rob I feel the need to write something here in particular as I did criticise him earlier. I find his points more intriguing than sus which gives me a fairly positive read on him even if I voiced my disagreement in some regards. I am pretty sure I made some comments on everyone else on this list.
kae
dawn

n
ian

x
Linkcat
worldwideweb3
MasterWalks
andretimpa
Submachine
killsdazombies
DoubleCapitals
Calindu
Naii_the_Baf

x basically means no read. Those are a few more than I expected and certainly hoped. Wouldn't be surprised to find all three mafia in this mix. I am more confident with some lynches over others. For instance I have a decent idea what to look out for regarding Link at later stages in the game than I have for, say, MW. I don't think I'll ever get to read Sub. The ones not under x are in descending order and I'd hate to see them lynched. The ones under x I'd like to see more of, obviously I also want to see more of my town reads.

[kaempfer13]

Spoiler for tonight I upgrade to my final form:

shock wanted us to look at this for some reason; Probably a waste of time since he couldnt possibly have any information at that time. It directly follows my post about rita having potential as one of the roles that can out scum (with massive drawbacks as discussed, let's not get into it again, its gone or in hands of sin mal now), so could be a roleclaim.
The elements could be a reference to the roles he had in mafias, but that doesnt really seem to add up (for instance rita would be if anything). the first letters of the elements add up to elff which almost seemed like sth provided he accidently tapped fire twice, but even then I cant make sense of it.

[iancudorinmarian]

Imagine trying to analyze shock's posts

[andretimpa]

Alright so im at a catch .22
Im looking for legit advice here.

People want me lynched for what seems like not being as blatantly stupid as last game. So, do i dumb down? Do i just take the lynch? Not really sure. I cant even defend myself because what can i even say? "Sorry guys, these rules are more complicated and so im trying to put more thought into my posts as to not spread misinformation." I already said that. Its not working.

If its because of the shock vote, i already explained my vote. I voted due to a scummy action he made. Isnt that hOw MaFiA wOrKs?

I have given all the information about myself. Lemme bulletin it so that if i do get lynched, youll see there is no info to gain from it.

• Im Town
• I do NOT have an information role
• I have NOT used my role yet

I'm all for you trying to improve your game. If you are scared this will get you misslynched, don't be:

• If people see you flip town while being more serious, we will take you more seriously in the next game
• If you play dumb on purpose, mafia will leave you alone, but that's because you are being detrimental to town

[andretimpa]

MW and I are maf partners 

S O L V E D G A M E

[Linkcat]

MW I don't really care how you change your play and I won't scumread you for it but please just stop sharing information about your role way too early.

[andretimpa]

Now that we have some EOD dynamics I think I can build some reads

kdz (n) Not much substance so far, but he has a good excuse for that. Just parked on dawn and stuck to it (even tho dawn will probably just die to Cecilia). Needs more for a better read.
I'm guilty of the same thing. But I have to address this again as I catch it: Don't kill dawn if you are Cecilia.

My comment about dawn is from the perspective of what was happening at EOD, when he had still posted nearly nothing. I think dawn's chances of surviving the night have improved since then.

[kaempfer13]

Btw, since timpa just brought that quote up and i wanted to see what was in the original post. There is a 0%chance I am bronya and I really hope you guys are smart enough to figure out why.