Below I list all stuff that I thought about but has not shared yet. I wanted to break down everything person by person at first, but that would make it hard to analyze discussions between two players, so I attempt to go in chronological order.
(color=darkslateblue) If the info everyone has shared so far is truthful, then I'm pretty sure at least 4 players know I'm not the mafia.
(color=springgreen) Yet, this may not be enough to convince some of you thicker skulled common folk.
(color=alicewhite) So I propose a game where I share a little bit about myself to gain trust.
(also used: color=teal)
By that point, iancu and www rolled a dice, rob, kdz, Calindu, serprex, and Annele commented about the dicerolls, I mentioned not reading my role, and DC, kdz, rob, and Linkcat responded to my not reading role. Nothing else was shared in topic. Based on everything that has been shared at that point, I see no way to extrapolate shock's alignment, who hasn't even posted up until that point. At first I assumed he was talking about the mafia, but considering the very next post, I questioned whether he has more information than we see. (not immediately, it took some time)
Maybe it was a joke about dicerolls being legit reads? Ian and www rolled dices, kdz joked about one of the dicerolls being true, but that would be still only 3 players and not 4. And why would he want to convince anyone about a joke? He is not Deja Vu, so it cannot be that. He did not use any ability either.
He also uses some specific color codes. Breadcrumbs? I spent some time trying to figure out what it could mean, but did not find too much.
- If you read together the second letter of the used colors, it reads APLE. That does not hint at anything.
- If you read together the third letter of the used colors in reverse, it reads AIRR. Is he a Dragonfly or a Firefly Queen?
- No other combination stood out for me.
you all seem desperately hungry for your mind games and unfortunately, I am one to fuel the flame, even if the flame is on my own body.
Shock's playstyle is to play like shock. There is nothing more to it. If you try to dig deeper than this, you will only descend into madness. Madness and mislynches.
Or maybe Link is right about him. With shock, it can go either way. Moving on.
Warden doesn't roleblock anymore so it's fine to use on whoever you want. Burrow and Divine Shield are up to the user.
not entirely true. It still blocks everyone who targets the same person, including the occasional Golden Nymph. Personally, I still advise against using it.
I struggle to think of acceptable situations where Warden should be used. If used on unknown, it blocks investigation. If used on Town, it blocks healing and allows Nightkill. If used on conf Mafia, it blocks Otyugh.
I guess it COULD be used to protect someone from a publicly announced Otyugh attack. Or it COULD be used to confirm the existence of roles, by asking them to target the same person. But that's it.
Would Warden not fall under the same logic as Anubis? You are blocking all secondary abilities in both cases, even if Warden does it for only one turn, but with the added benefit of learning what roles you blocked. You can block Golden Nymph from investigating someone this way.
No. There's not that high a chance you block a town Psion or Dragonfly, and if you do, you're just trading one piece of information for another. You can avoid blocking Heal by just not targeting the obvious Heal/NK targets. The only role you really have to worry about blocking is GN, but there's only one of those and you have a much higher chance of stopping a mafia member's ability as long as you target a strong townread.
In that case, yeah, I agree it can be used for information.
I don't get Link's and ian's reasoning to accept Wardening on Night 0.
"You can avoid blocking Heal by just not targeting the obvious Heal/NK targets."
If the Heal target is obvious every night, the mafia just targets someone else. That is why Healers try to subvert expectations to get the chance of actually blocking a NK. Healers should only focus on obvious NK targets when someone is confirmed, or is relevant for a plan. None of which we had on Night 0.
"The only role you really have to worry about blocking is GN, but there's only one of those and you have a much higher chance of stopping a mafia member's ability as long as you target a strong townread."
We should worry more about blocking GN than encouraging the small chance to mess with a mafia ability.
Well, not now, but it was true on Night 0. It was only 2 games ago that a Warden blocking GN cost Town the game, surely Link did not forget. And what Mafia abilities can a Warden block?
- [Offensive] Freeze, in which case, blocking it only gives 1 day advantage to use a role.
- [Offensive] Obsession, which is only ever a problem if the user dies, not the target.
- [Offensive] Poison and Devour, which would be good to prevent, but if Mafia wants the target dead, they might use a Nightkill instead, and Warden would block the Healer.
- [Informative] Psion, which would assume, the target is hard/soft confirmed without his role being known, and at that point, only Mafia would use this role on him. So, I have nothing against this.
- [Informative] Dragonfly, which is as much a Town utility as a Mafia utility (it interests both factions who targets the player), and would block the two equally.
- [Other] Other mafia abilities are pointless to block.
So why do Link and ian believe that blocking these mafia roles outweigh the off-chance of blocking the GN?
I don't remember which mafia it was, but I remember being Fate Egg, rolling into Golden Nymph and being blocked by warden. And as fate would have it, I would've investigated a mafia member, I think it was Root.
Note: The Warden targeted Root, not ian.
The role did not change enough to prevent the same from happening. The same mechanic that messed up the Town is still active. But sure, use it?
This came off to me as a slight hint to drive Wardens into action right away.
edit:
Not voting is good while you agree with the tally. Gives a wide net for who could be graboid. Even if GN is off the table, there's still nice roles out there like Psion & FFQ. Let mafia have to risk missing on graboid if they want to go after the no-vote crowd
Serp, your logic is good, but in mafia it's far more valuable to have hard voting data with competing trains than to have some chance of mafia missing an ability.
So Link DOES believe there are some actions that are not worth to do to make mafia miss an ability. But potentially blocking the Golden Nymph is not one of them? I do not agree with these priorities.
These were during Night 0, so things were tame. Then Day 1 began.
Feels bad. But at least I feel like I have much better feel about how players think this time, so I'm somewhat confident we can still do this through legitimate solving.
Maybe I don't understand how kaempf has a much better feel of players because of the lack of context. @kae: Were you talking about all players, specific players, or about how the Mafia thinks? I read back everything that was before this post, and I find not enough things of relevance. Which players, or which factions did you get a better feel of? I want to solve too, but if you make unexplained comments, you just confuse me.
I clearly hinted at my pending action.
I already compiled all hints I could find (
here), but here's it again.
You hinted at being at odds with Coffee's activity. You did not hint offensive action against Coffee, or having an action like that, or using it on Night 0. You did say later that using "lunch" instead of "lynch" was a hint of having Otyugh, but you also said "clearly hinted". This hint was not clear, and you only hinted at your role, not that you plan to use it, or that you will act on Coffee.
This is not a perspective on your action, but a perspective of the way you wanted others to perceive your action.
If rob was maf here he made a terrible play. he killed an inactive player that couldnt even be arsed to protect himself with his role and dragged a lot of attention to himself while also reducing our PoE and losing his ability to make a more promaf kill later.
I guess i could have botched the ISO on coffee?
What does PoE and ISO stand for? I don't visit MU enough to know. These terminologies should be explained.
MasterWalks (1) - DoubleCapitals
throwing my vote here then until MW responds to him seemingly FoSing ian (the gaslight comment) for what I can tell was just N0 banter
FoS?
LMAO W3 GET FUCKED
TOTALLY WORTH LOSING GN
What the- I am not a big fan off www either, but between "LOL" and "F**K", my reaction was "F**K" when I first saw it. 
Rude, I'm a huge w3 fan. 
And with that, the question was shrugged off.
First off, roleplay detected.
Second off,
wat. Link's two reactions do not add up to me.
DC - what's with the seemingly unnecessary wasteful early (N0??) claim?! For all we know you could be mafia trying to use this to combine with teammates to find and trap\uncover other roles. What is TP (toilet paper? Is there murder hornet hoarding problems in your area?) and LO (league organizer? Are they pertinent to this?)...
I would consider this minor rage real; slight townie points (toned down a little by the fact that he might just be mad that he has no idea what dc is talking about and thus might be mad even as mafia). Rob/DC not w/w from this
Pretty shit read, rob is perfectly capable of bantering with teammates like this.
I guess that's a compliment to my scum-bility?
It feels like a rather loose reason to townread me, no? Hmm
A non w/w read is not a townread.
Link, you seem pretty concerned and knowledgeable about rob's ability for theater. Can you link me to a game where he did that earlier?
Not worth the time, that statement applies to anyone that's good.
Is it not worth looking at a game where rob was mafia? To me, it seems like Kae cannot find that game, and he would want to see it for himself, either to catch up with Link's knowledge about rob, or to find something that Link didn't.
Surely Link got his information about rob somewhere. Somewhere written. If it was in a private chat or a deleted Titanpad, then the correct response would be "It's of no use" and not "Not worth the time". "Not worth the time" implies the game exists somewhere, but Link thinks it is pointless to look into it. Maybe it IS pointless, but I don't see why yet.
Lucky for him, mafia was actually intelligent and chose a great NK target, going for the group of players right below the juiciest targets.
Link is knowledgeable about who are good targets for Mafia. The mafia target lines up with how Link thinks. I put this here in case I develop a suspicion on Linkcat by the end of this.
I think it reads like Sub could be trying to imitate his prior games where I've seen him do things like not read a role pm (seriously?) and make before-I-die town plans\please etc. But it seems either rushed (eh could be I suppose) or disingenuous that I currently read scummy enough to get a vote.
Like iancu said, it's just normal Sub stuff, and it was rushed, he literally said he almost forgot the deadline.
I did not respond yet, but yes, I was in a hurry and I did not have the leisure to cover all exceptions and special cases. I am putting less rush and more thinking into this one. If that bad point still has relevance, I'm game to discuss it.
I put this here for later reference.
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/forum-games/elements-mafia-73-by-playeroa/msg1297014/#msg1297014
I performed a Night 1 shot as Town in Mafia 50. I can relate.
1. To be fair, there was a mafia egging you on to make that kill. 
Rob already used this kind of breadcrumbing. Pick something else. xD If you end up being an Egg too, using the same breadcrumbing that rob used before he revealed it, I will call shenanigans. And since I believe you were neither Deja Vu nor breaking the rules, the remaining explanations are Mafia Chat and extreme coincidence.
If you are not both eggs, ignore this part.
Yeah, because that's exactly what scum do is that last statement: kill someone knowing it will be revealed they did it just to pull the spotlight into myself.
I missed this post before I made my first confusion post. This confirms that rob could have devoured Coffee with either alignment. But ultimately it sucks for me, because I was the one not paying enough attention.
TorB brought up valid points about rob, but then rob responded like so:
Sooo, you're saying that you think I might be a wolf because I made a play with a negative town outcome to draw spotlight on myself expecting people here to think I'm too smart too be that dumb as a wolf and thereby townread a wolf--rob for it?
Lol there's no way that is a real thought? From my position, that feels quite fabricated... Keeping my vote where it is. Let's say you could vote - would you be voting me right now
The part in yellow translates to me as: "There's no way I could think of such elaborate strategy!", which is either self-praise or dismissing his own ability to create such theater. None of which seem honest.
Linking back to kaempfer's question to Linkcat about giving past examples of rob being Mafia, I just remembered the time where rob was Mafia, and he goaded Town into lynching me. It was Linkcat's closed mafia setup, roleplay involved. I did not follow the game after my death, out of salt, but it can be of use for others.
I saw a few others who made valid points against rob (TorB, serp, Link, Annele), and now that my townread on him loosened a bit, I can agree with them.
I need to re-evaluate my reads on rob after this.
@Rob: During Night 0, did you see benefit in your plan even if Coffee was Town? Because as the conversations drag on, you seem to forget bringing that up in your defense.
edit: Note to self: In rob's defense, if he was truthful about it, he was
in need of sleep and he was typing all that from phone.
And now we have come to this.
This is to be continued. I need to elaborate why this ended up as confusing.
Just because someone attracts a bunch of attention, that does not equal lynch target. Activity leads to more activity. Punishment of activity is bad. Because of this, even if rob or Link say something outrageous, keep them alive please. They are most likely town if they are active, anyway.
What? I agree that we should not punish activity, but in the same time, why should we look the other way when it comes to rob or Link? Are we really that useless without them that we are ok with losing on the spot if they are mafia? From this, all I get is that if you are mafia, they have a higher chance of being too, and same the other way around.
But I also wanted to imply that I only want to keep these people alive "longer", but not indefinitely. Hopefully, by the endgame, all town with lower activity is cleared out by either making them contribute more or by executing them.
Again, activity good, inactivity bad, but this type of behaviour is frustrating to play with casually. Even when I feel like I'm contributing and being fairly active, it seems like it's not enough for everyone and I'm berated for it. Let's just not execute people on the spot because they don't have a bazillion posts, ok?
I wanted to respond to this too.
"why should we look the other way when it comes to rob or Link?"
Do not look the other way, just appreciate the discussion they spark. I could have said kaempfer or shock too, but in this game, Link and rob have been the most vocal. And
according to moe, DoubleCapitals too, but I overlooked him somehow.
"Are we really that useless without them that we are ok with losing on the spot if they are mafia?"
With a clear head, I now understand what you mean. I did not want to imply that everyone else is less useful than them, if it came off that way, I apologize for that.
My message was supposed to be, if there are indeed people who are undeniably less useful than the voice catalysts, AND if killing them would significantly drop the discussion rate, then that is the time to NOT lynch them for attracting outrage.
I acknowledge that exceptions may occur, as always, but I intended this as a guideline, and not as a rule of thumb.
"this type of behaviour is frustrating to play with casually. Even when I feel like I'm contributing and being fairly active, it seems like it's not enough for everyone and I'm berated for it. Let's just not execute people on the spot because they don't have a bazillion posts, ok?"
I am putting myself in your stead to see your point of view, and I see now where I was not clear enough. By low-activity people, I do not mean people with the least posts, but in fact, the people with the least contributions. A silent power role can come out at the end of the game to reveal all her information in one post, which puts her in a more powerful position than the high-poster who has only been townread because of his behavior. And a high-poster can have equal useful contributions as a low-poster, if he's been shitposting all the time. I listed two, but there are other cases where the contributions matter, not the post count.
I want to ask, does this help you understand my point of view better?
This reads like a wikiHow, reaction included:
Spoiler for Hidden:
All I hope is MasterWalks doesn't get some blocking ability again and spams it for no reason 
I think ian is gaslighting here. He is trying to get me to tunnel on him. People wont believe me if i say to lynch him since they will think its because of this comment. This is sketchy.
How to not have people think you're trying to lynch someone on a grudge.
Step 1: Give any kind of reasoning for your push.
Step 2: If your reasoning is solidly countered, withdraw your push.
Step 3: Don't use words like gaslighting incorrectly.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit
Now I can get to the Devour. Now, when I saw this, I wasn't that surprised that rob went for it, but I still facepalmed because THIS IS NOT MU, ROB. PEOPLE HERE HAVE LIVES. Also, it was Night 0, the least important phase of the game to be active in. He's in college, he could be having finals or something. It's not that uncommon for people to be afk for a couple days here, that's why our modkill system is more lenient than some other places. And, by the way, we have that modkill system for a reason. If you had held off just one Night like a reasonable person, then there would've been no point in killing him Night 1, since he would die anyway, and you would save a powerful ability, unless he had just made like 1 post in which case Devouring him would be justified.
If rob is town, his reasoning is that he was very likely to be an early NK target, so he better use his ability while he can, and there was a reasonable enough target, not realizing that such a move on this forum would draw him a lot of shade and waste time on Day 1 we could be better using to find the mafia. Lucky for him, mafia was actually intelligent and chose a great NK target, going for the group of players right below the juiciest targets.
If rob is mafia, his reasoning is that there is a certain point in the game where vigging a scumread is reasonable enough to not be that sus, and he was very likely to be investigated early on and not get to use his ability, which is a very strong one to have as mafia and not usually one you want to waste early. He would also have to believe that Coffee would actually become active, otherwise his ability would be wasted.
Analysis: Killing inactives with roles is a generally good practice, but rob super jumped the gun on it and its kind of a bad play as either alignment, but worse as town and I expect better play from rob. Slight scum read.
I clearly hinted at my pending action. I can almost guarantee inactivity becomes a magnet for scum to aim at it the inactive is town. If an inactive is scum then they can share by doing nothing. So I essentially vigged the lone inactive. Sadly they were town, but now we can actually work towards solving the game instead of debating a zero poster who was also, I might add, an inactivity modkill a year ago in their prior elements mafia participation. I DID NOT TAKE THE PLANNING OF MY ACTION LIGHTLY. Anyone want to discuss it further I'm game. Voting me ONLY because of that is inane (serp? Care to give your read of me and not just the makes hour?)
How Sub would know we'd both be alive? TMI? I like that observation Link. Care to start a wagon as what develops? I do.
Serp why ian? And 3 vultures - what's the import?
iancudorinmarian (1) - serprex
Sub (1) - rob77dp
No, it's straight up bad advice, which you should have recognized. Stop trying to buddy me.
To those wondering out loud or still to themselves... I think Link is right, I'm still probably within my range as either alignment so far this game. Also struggling to get in a mindset that seems to fit with role madness game type- I'm much more at home vanilla setups.
Need players to post more or have some sort of content to parse and try to read\analyze. Feels like plenty of straw grasping so far.
COULD REALLY USE MORE PLAYERS posting reads of my play so far... Other than www3 dying N0 as town cop it is there most eventful action so far...
Also I think Linkcats conclusion doesnt really make sense. He talks about a certain point of the game when using devour is safe to do as scum (apparently that's immediately), while also giving an equally plausible scenario where rob is town. As mafia doesnt get nk'ed his entire argument hinges on rob being so afraid of being investigated that he expected to get lynched day 1 and thus used his ability on the least valuable target, simply because its the only he could justify (especially considering that these types of things probably are discussed in maf chat, at least one of which should recognize that coffee was likely to get mk'ed anyway thus making robs ability completely useless)?
What is the message you were trying to convey with those series of quotes, and how is it a WikiHow? I read it as a buildup for your case about Linkcat's conclusion, but then quoting MW feels out of place. I feel like I am missing a lesson from the buildup.
I have been writing this post for almost 6 hours now, and there are still 10 pages left I wanted to in-depth talk about!!!
I will not be ready before my death if I keep going, so have a preview.~
Poll
