Elements Mafia 68 - by Kuroaitou

[Solaris]

When was the last time Coffee pushed an original scumread of his?

When was the last time kdz pushed an original scumread of his?

can check, don't ask this question to me because I believe I've scumread everyone in this game at least once

[killsdazombies]

When was the last time Coffee pushed an original scumread of his?

When was the last time kdz pushed an original scumread of his?

You'd have to go back a dozen or so mafias for that, because it happens rarely, if ever.

[killsdazombies]

I dont push my scum reads, unless im positive they are scum. And this is why

I declare rob 100% mafia, lets kill him. The mafia sees this, and they kill me during the night. the next day they make sure to mention, "lets look back at who KDZ suspected!" someone picks up the scum read on rob, and calls for robs head because of it. Shouting out information I haven't confirmed is asking to A, be nightkilled and B, have a lynch pushed on someone that I'm not sure is mafia.

[rob77dp]

I dont push my scum reads, unless im positive they are scum. And this is why

I declare rob 100% mafia, lets kill him. The mafia sees this, and they kill me during the night. the next day they make sure to mention, "lets look back at who KDZ suspected!" someone picks up the scum read on rob, and calls for robs head because of it. Shouting out information I haven't confirmed is asking to A, be nightkilled and B, have a lynch pushed on someone that I'm not sure is mafia.

Dude, seriously, you can push a scumread without it being "100%". You can even lynch a player you are not sure is scum but do suspect is scum. That is a fundamental aspect of playing this game as town - reading people and solving by pushing on those you read/feel/think are scummy.

Is this really your stance - that you only want to push people you are 100% sure are scum? That is a very very very rare situation indeed so I'm curious how it is you expect to vote on and lynch scum?

[killsdazombies]

I might be misunderstanding you, I take "pushing a scum read" to mean making a scum read on someone, and voting on them with certainty. I'll make votes where I find logic and scummy behavior, but starting my own votetrain is a rarity often unfound with me.

I interpreted your statement as the most extreme kind of scumreading, which for me, is found mostly with proof or solid logic, if you just mean "Have a read and mention it" then yeah, I do that a bit (especially this mafia, since i dont really /enjoy/ being perpetually afk) but you wont find certainty in my statements.

So basically, if a player seems scummy, and another player starts a train on them with decent logic, often a restatement of things I have seen or thought, I'll toss my vote with it; but for me to START the train, I either need to have logic I can't find many, if it all a fault in, solid proof (IE if I was cop) or a vote in self defense (though the last is one i am weary of)

[killsdazombies]

Starting a train, or making a read with certainty is a sure fire way to get night killed, and have your actions manipulated post-death, which is why I avoid it constantly, in all games, regardless of what side I'm on. You can go back to the last 20 mafias, and you wont find me starting a train unless I'm a cop, Im voting in self defense, I have an almost unreasonable amount of proof, or occasionally, as mafia (though, I don't recall doing it, as mafia seems vaguely familiar, so I wont discount it without looking back)

[rob77dp]

reads update... a longer form post to follow shortly, too. (this list put together PRIOR to the upcoming post...)

not-Criminal-reads:
UTA

lesser-not-Criminal-reads:
gino
Sol
Sub
mathman

smaller scum-leans:
fabian
JCJ
dawn
kdz

scum-reads:
Coffee

[rob77dp]

Spoiler for Luna's reads:

Town
Coffee
UTA <-- 99.9% not-Criminal
Solaris

Possibly Town
gino
fabian
DC <-- flipped Town
ian <-- flipped Town
ddevans <-- flipped Town

No Read
JCJ
dawn
Submachine
mathman
kdz

Possible Scum
rob <-- I am Town.

It is just so very very unlikely Criminal!Luna does not put _at least one_ of her Criminal teammates into the town sections - if not BOTH of them - that I feel very confident in seeing at least one of Coffee / Sol / gino / fabian flip red.

In my opinion, those four in order from most likely scum to not as likely scum: Coffee >> fabian > gino >> Sol.

Nothing comes to mind for how to dive much further into that Null section, at the moment. Maybe later.

Spoiler for Coffee's reads:

I'll just use everyone else's format.

Town
Coffee - Hi, I am me.
UTA - His killing of Espithel confirms him as town, as that could not have been maf killing maf as Kuro said maf can't kill eachother on purpose. Generally waits to jump aboard a train, and seeks reasoning. (99.9% not-Criminal)
Rob - Talks too much to not be town, and is actively looking for maf by questioning anyone and everyone. That being said, he likes to push on everyone maybe a little too much. Possibly INT. (I am Town)

Town Lean
killsda - Partakes in discussions, delayed our lynch yesterday to try and make sure we really wanted to lynch W3 instead of me or Sol. Hasn't said an awfully large amount of things, though.
Submachine - I can't really tell, but I get a town feeling from him and I think he is thinking more about how to win the game for town instead of how to be clear; something I'm not doing :V
JCJ - Approaches situations logically which translates to him being towny. I think he saying/doing what makes the most sense as opposed to what everyone else is doing.

Neutral/Too hard to tell
ddevans - I have no idea about him. I think he's slightly more town than neutral, but he could go either way. I know he's posted a lot, but I can't confidently call him either role. Possibly INT. (flipped Town)
iancudorinmarian - I haven't seen much from him besides him liking to follow the towny peoples' calls. (flipped Town)

Scum Lean
Lunaris - I appreciate her firmly believing I am town, and I think she is town as well because placing trust in a town-called-scum is useless for maf. However, she has a playstyle that is very scum-like: coasting a lot, not giving fully helpful answers/replies and being pretty vague with everything. Plus, not sure why she thinks rob is scum. (flipped Criminal)
Solaris - He went from 'I don't give a fuck' to an aggressive pusher, almost similar to Rob. The reason why I think Sol is scum and not Rob is because of this huge shift in playstyle. Agree with him on Fabian though.
DC - Too quiet, maybe a little giddy when it comes to lynching/bandwagons. Not sure, though. (flipped Town)

Scum
Mathman101 - Thank you for saving me! But, mathman has been nearly silent and gave no reason for saving me or much reasoning behind his actions at all. Coasting and not being very affirmative or supportive of his own choices.
Fabian - He's too quiet and riding too much to be beneficial to us even if he was town. Not sure how the jailer thing worked out, but I pretty firmly believe he is maf.

That is very unlikely to be a towny/genuine read from Coffee on Luna (a flipped Criminal) leading me to suspect Coffee of being a Criminal (I have posted other thoughts on additional aspects of my Coffee=Criminal read)... if so, then:

* Given HOW Coffee is supporting his "Scum" section reads I find it unlikely either math or fabian is Criminal (especially mathman since Coffee's reason for having him there is what I used to get a wagon going on math at critical juncture/EOD where Criminals are very unlikely to just "sacrifice" a teammate considering they're already down Espi at that point). -- math/fabian maybe town.

* It is likely a Criminal!Coffee does NOT put TWO teammates right next to each in the "Scum Lean" section -- Sol likely town being adjacent to Luna there.

* It is likely a Criminal!Coffee has his teammate in the town-read sections -- kdz / Sub / JCJ.

* dawn being left out seems more likely not-a-teammate as scum tend to be careful about where they place teammates so omitting one would have to be intentional and doesn't fit here, to me -- dawn possibly town.

Now, I bring this puppy home:
1. Likely one or two scum among Coffee >> fabian > gino >> Sol (analysis of Criminal!Luna's reads list).
2. math/fabian maybe town.
3. Sol likely town.
4. Likely one scum among kdz / Sub / JCJ.
5. dawn is leaning town.

-->
Overlaying this with my own reads I arrive at this POE:
Coffee > kdz >> JCJ/Sub >> gino.

[Solaris]

100% agree with that PoE ultimatum, in that order, rob. Are we going to lynch in that order, w/o further development?

[UTAlan]

I'm good with a Coffee lynch.

To the Intel comment about me - I only pushed for mass role claim after rob had already introduced the idea, and it was based on the assumption that we have no more than 2 of each role (which apparently not everyone here is convinced is the case). Since some players see it as a "cheap" strategy, I'm okay not doing it (though I don't see how it's cheap if it would help town). And btw, we already established that a mass role claim wouldn't help Intel b/c they need to know the actual role names, not just "Officer" or "Bodyguard" or whatever.

[killsdazombies]

Mass roleclaim wouldnt even do anything unless people were foolish and revealed their /actual/ role name without being pressed into it via a counterclaim.

[killsdazombies]

I dont even think the intel are anti-town anyway, it seems easier for the intel to win WITH town than win against it, no?